Preview M20: I Choose You!

[Silktree]

If they had to use an alternate universe, they should have gone all out by having

Spoiler

Ash live in the "real world" without Pokemon much like that brief dream, except it would be real and the anime events would be... something supernatural.

It sounds problematic, but it could have worked nicely with a bit of Shudo's sophistication that the other writers clearly lack.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Spoiler

Maybe it sounds somehow like a fanfic. It doesn't seem Marshadow needed to be there, why not save it for next year?
How did Makoto get a Piplup given she's from Johto?
And how about they stop trying to make Ash die again in order to copy the first movie?
How did Ash think he can beat Ho-Oh with Pikachu?

 

[Sakuraa]

All I'll say is that the movie sounds pretty good. Hopefully we'll get some more summaries though.

Spoiler

I'm so glad Misty and Brock only appear in the credits and not in the actual film. That's one of the main things I wanted to happen. I'm also thrilled that TR barely appear at all.

 

[Silktree]

If the main thing you wanted was to see Misty and Brock gone, there are 6 movies that already did that and 10 others where they barely stood out (especially Misty who was gone after the fifth).

I get the distinct impression that most of the people who like the movie do so purely because it replaced characters for no discernible reason.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Despite Pokebeach's nagative tone and summary's lack of context...the plot sounds better than what I expected!

Spoiler

Satoshi finally had a female companion from Johto! And a male one from Sinnoh Marshadow's role is surprisingly little, Legendary Beasts' role is surprisingly big. Johto myths and Ho-oh is actually important parts of the plot. I wasn't expecting something like Satoshi's death and Pikachu's talking.

 

[kantoskies]

I will say though I do want to see it for myself before passing *complete* judgement. After all maybe it just sounds kind of lame on paper but in execution it's decent.

 

[Silktree]

I was expecting a resurrection scene before the direction of this movie went south.

Spoiler

And I wouldn't say that the beasts have a big role. While their myths gets referenced, nothing is fleshed out and they end just appearing for probably a minute at best (how long does it take to beat Ash?) to look cool. Also, Ash's obsession with catching legendaries just to strike his own ego is disturbing, and could perhaps explain the bizarre ending.

 

[Jaye]

I'm just glad that the story seems to be something that's personal to Ash and not yet another generic story about a talking legendary people don't care about. Regardless of everything else, that's a step in the right direction for the movie franchise.

 

[Kirby4ever]

The way that the summery was written out, it sounds like that the movie was kind of rushed. Or is it me?

 

[Silktree]

Yes, it sounds rushed.

I'm just glad that the story seems to be something that's personal to Ash and not yet another generic story about a talking legendary people don't care about. Regardless of everything else, that's a step in the right direction for the movie franchise.

Don't expect it to last. Something like this can really only work once in a decade or so with Ash still being the protagonist. Well, the first decade actually did it twice (or thrice if you include Ash's first death), but one time was with Delia rather than Pikachu, and I can't see her being used again.

And I'll take Pikachu's Goodbye over this movie any day, to say nothing of other episodes or movies that did have interesting legendaries whose roles weren't wasted on something fairly simple.

 

[Jaye]

I didn't mean that future movies should be about Ash specifically. I meant that future movies should be about a human character we actually care about, like a member of the main cast, and not a legendary. Make the next movie about Lillie, or Lana, or Kiawe or something (like what M6 was to Max and M9 to May), and it'd be a lot better than what we've been given in the last decade or so.

 

[Silktree]

Well, Lillie is going to get that in the anime itself since all she has going for her is the backstory from the games. They won't force kids to watch the movie to understand her story arc, which is more complicated than "Ash and Pikachu love each other."

The other four SM companions are so minor. Sure, Max and May got movies, but this time they would have to choose one or two out of four trial captains... not happening in all likelihood. Especially if the UBs are the focus.

 

[Islander Princess]

The movie sounds incredibly sloppy and underwhelming, which I was pretty much expecting (although I was hoping they could pull it together). The only positive is it sounds like the movie exclusive characters' scenes can be fast forwarded through or not paid attention to without missing much of anything, so I'll still be able to watch it exclusively for the animation and the Ash/Pikachu/Ho-Oh scenes.

Still interested in seeing some more recaps, but it looks like this'll be another "one and done" movie for me.

 

[Silktree]

To me the biggest disappointment is how empty Ho-Oh's role is.

Spoiler

Yes, it is a nod to the Ecruteak lore, but the only reason that Ash got killed was because Marshadow lost its mind over a symbolic feather. The progression of events really boils down to this: Ash and Pikachu nearly die -> Ho-Oh leaves the feather -> Ash wants to meet it and Marshadow follows him -> Marshadow even helps Ash snap out of his sudden jerkiness -> Cross steals the feather after losing a battle -> Marshadow becomes crazy -> Ash dies and Ho-Oh has to resurrect him.

It basically makes Ho-Oh look silly for leaving the feather to begin with, since it made everyone crazy (including Ash, who was obsessed with finding Ho-Oh and had a huge ego for a newbie). So after 20 years we get to see the encounter, but the only thing it accomplishes is yet another proof of Ash and Pikachu's bond. Something that was done best in Pikachu's Goodbye, quite honestly, because a good relationship isn't about saving each other's lives.

It almost seems as if Ho-Oh wanted to test Ash's resolve to save Pikachu twice, which is disgusting to think about.

And it seems as if the only criterion the staff used to determine which OS elements to use was emotional impact. So Charmander and Butterfree stayed (with the former getting an awful retcon, but whatever), but the rest of Ash's team and his companions were ditched since they never provided any tearjerkers. Not that Makoto is any different, but Soji might have a contrived backstory if 4chan is to be believed.

Spoiler

He supposedly had a Luxray that died in a snowstorm while trying to protect him. Because this movie needed another sob story in addition to those lifted from the original series.

 

[Shoutmon]

Soji has the backstory Iris should have gotten rip

 

[Charmander4]

So basically they took some basic plots from season 1 and modified them.

Caterpie evolving battling a Pinsir- nod to EP4

Metapod evolved battling a Primeape. Nod to Ash's.

Butterfree leaving after fending off Fearow from Pink Butterfree- nod to Pallet Party Panic

And if there is a consolation for all of this it's that we now have unequivocally proven SM is the same Ash continuity we've always known (not that I doubted it). Tauros, Wobbuffet, and others are proof.

 

[Shadao]

I really hate doing long responses, but here you go.

Spoiler

So what your suggesting is alienating one set of fans in order to try and create new set of fans through such actions? That's if anything risky and poor marketing decision losing foundation* and already established fandom. With attempt of potentially with big if multiple incarnations of original protagonists and parallel universes managing to find its home and people who would appreciate such thing.

Spider Man isn't good example to prove your point either considering lukewarm reception of several of reboot attempts and people dissatisfaction feeling disservice was done to Peter Parker roots and his relationship with other characters. Most of all going on new work before even previous one was wrapped up.
In pokemon case if you honestly expect that people would appreciate and accept after 20 years of waiting that original Ash, older characters and everything which was slowly developed or deteriorated(depending on saga and way you look at it), abruptly gets cancelled with no satisfying closure and proper ending.

Than im sorry to say but your not well familiarized with how pokemon fandom breathes in general. People would never accept such thing, not until main anime and characters from original universe get conclusion with people loyalty and their time invested in this series for years being rewarded and recognized.

The lukewarm reception of Spider-Man reboots, as far as I can tell, had to do with Sony retelling the origin story of Spider Man when it didn't need to so soon and focusing too much on creating a cinematic universe instead of telling a Spider-Man story in the Amazing Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man Homecoming, as far as I can tell, got great reviews and reception from the fans (especially with its connection to MCU). Ultimate Spider-Man TV series was criticized not because it failed to continue the Spectacular Spider-Man (which was screwed by copyright laws), but because it was too goofy and light on characterization. But it did create it's own fans.

How this relate to Pokémon is simple. It's been years since we've last went back on how Ash and Pikachu's friendship began. You had more references to how Ash got Charizard than how Ash got Pikachu (in fact, I think there were more complaints of Charizard getting some spotlight in this movie than retelling Ash and Pikachu's first meeting). There was no reference to that first episode, not even in Sun and Moon. As such, I doubt people are tired to hear that classic story again. In terms of the original universe not getting a conclusion, since when did comic book heroes ever got a conclusion? They continue forever in new adventures without any kind of grand conclusion, because that's how the market works. Even if it's detrimental to a superhero's image. Many have simply given up on Peter Parker after One More Day and turned to other forms of media featuring his adventures that are not compromised by executive greed.

Only small fraction of fans(based on what i saw) asked for full fledged reboot with no ties to original universe and past. Im fairly sure that most who asked for new series*wanted new protagonist following in Ash Ketchum foots with his story being set in main anime continuity and timeline.

Such as taking sometime in future with Ash as older, more experienced adult appearing occasionally to serve as mentor and inspiring figure.

Needless to say your overestimating number of people who wanted new anime to begin with, especially in such big pool like pokemon fandom is(counted in millions in total).

A full reboot of Ash's Adventures or Ash mentoring the new generation, it makes no difference to me. It all carries the same vibe, the old series has been going on for far too long and thus it must start over completely fresh. A new character, whether he be a rebooted Ash or a new trainer altogether, is more welcomed than the idea that the character is the same Ash from the original series. Why else do you think the SM is an AU theory became so popular?

Once again your not taking in account how not everyone is keen and appreciative toward idea of multiple universes being introduced in pokemon anime. Creating one big mess and confusion.

Believe me, I know about about big messes and confusions through the comic book industry. And if continuity spirals out of control, you either need a history buff of Pokémon to create a comprehensive All-Star story of a crisis crossover to fix it... or you start from scratch to allow the new readers to hop in easily. Comics and Manga can get away with the former, but movies and animated series are a different matter entirely.

One indication wouldn't be enough to make such assumption. But when putting all pieces of info together in puzzle, it starts to become more and more clear how much this could be reality.
Manga tie ins, statement of sound director on tweeter of this being new universe, Rica Matsumoto ambiguous statement followed by even usual logo ending of pokemon saga being changed. Where very last episode of Kalos unlike any others didn't end with "next time, new beginning", But with "end to our own way".

All of this points out toward SM anime not being part of previous pokemon anime. Of course writers and director would never directly confirm and state such thing in order to calm down viewers and avoid backlash(not like they succeeded), but this indications raise up a lot of suspicion.

Does not mean that the 20th Movie is canon to SM. In fact, if the recent spoilers are to go by:

Spoiler

Ash and Pikachu don't even interact with Team Rocket at all. Meaning that they don't have the same adversary conflict as they do in SM.

Satisfying ending for who?
Ash after 20 years didn't won a single league undermining on all effort and hard work with no real gratification happening as result of that.

Considering the aftermath, Ash got a better deal out of the bargain. And what good would winning the League be this time?

IN short, no Kalos saga didn't offered any closure, let alone satisfying ending for 20 years of pokemon adventure, its past, Ash character and anyone else. It was just abruptly ended with there existing ugly possibility of current series not even being part of established universe anymore. And in that case that would mean all those years of development, people watching main anime and* adventure was done in vain without ending.

It ended with a bookend on many levels, has Satoshi remembering his adventures in Kalos with the highs and lows, and a little romanatic kiss before it all ends. And Satoshi has never been this competent or powerful in any other series except possibly DP. Compare that to OS, AG and BW, XY was rather conclusive with its saga instead of doing a continuity bridge. It's not perfect, but it at least had an ending for people to jump off. And by this point, Ash's character development has reached a point where he's more interesting in how he affects like Sawyer and Alain rather than how others affect him.

How can it be considered nostalgic when there exists zero of that word in it. If it was original Ash and Pikachu with this movie taking place in established universe? Than yes, even at cost of other older characters being removed it could be viewed as such.

But to follow completely different character and his story for who people hold no emotional value and attachment, not being someone they invested in years of their time and attention doesn't mean much to majority.
Because that's not character and continuity they care about and grew to love.

Needless to say fact that symbolic act and special moment of Ash finally meeting Ho-Oh and establishing some bond with it is going to happen with alternate universe Ash. Instead with real one who saw Ho-oh several times in main anime foreshadowing possible meeting in future.Never being explained why he was chosen by Ho-OH with connection between him and Ash never being explored and developed.

Its disheartening and frustrating putting damper on your theory of Ash* encounter with Ho.oh being proper "finale". When its not even with original Ash but his clone for who people hold no attachment at all.

Also movie goal may be about Ash and Pikachu meeting with Ho-oh, but that doesn't change the fact how only Ash should be one getting all glory and focus. Especially in movies like anniversary ones are where other older characters are supposed to be present, updated and receive approval to their existence and impact left on franchise and show.

Not like this movie ever lived up to that standard anyway.

Do they do that to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles when a 2012 TV series hit the screen? Or Transformers Prime? Or Cyborg 009?

If it knows where the bond between Ash and Pikachu are, it can invoke emotions from audience old and new. Even remind people why they love those characters in the first place. Superman from the movies may be different from his comic book counterpart in many ways, but the filmmakers know how to capture his character that audience don't care if they are different. Deep down, they are still the same. Same thing with Wonder Woman. They are not the same character, and yet they are. And based on audience reception from the past, that's enough to make them emotional cry.

Your overlooking 2 important things in here:
First this movie was promoted and displayed not as movie exploring isolated and self contained Ash connection with Ho-oh. No it was marketed as anniversary movie celebrating 20 years of pokemon anime existence and its history.

And anniversaries by their very nature and definition mean return of major important characters, rewarding older fans for being loyal and dedicated toward product your making and respecting history acknowledging it.*

Not necessary. Anniversaries come in many forms. Some celebrate the entire series (meaning it's not Gen I exclusive) while others mark it with a different series altogether (G Gundam). And the rewards are usually re-releases of old episodes, games and toys. Judging from the movie itself, it is an anniversary given how it covers a lot of things outside of Gen I and still focuses on Ash and Pikachu, the original duo.

Even first trailers and promotion indicated and mislead people in believing how Misty, Brock, Gary etc will be in there not being defined as reboot from very start where this older characters don't even exist. IF it was people would still be disappointed, but at least they would be prepared significantly decreasing their anger and disappointment unlike its case now. With this movie by about half of fandom being either*hated and despised, or just disliked with people being highly disappointed. And other half being either fully supportive or disappointed but still opting to give it a chance and watch it.

Second movie made to celebrate 20 years of pokemon existence was last real hope allowing for Ash to reunite with his first traveling companions and friends Misty and Brock for one last time. And it was appropriate occasion, because practice for most anime and shows out there is to pay attention to their roots during anniversaries bringing back major older characters from pat doing special, fresh new things with them.
Being understandable why many are upset and sad with this movie.

The first trailer told us it was an AU. Ash's hat was the big give away. It told me that this movie could go anywhere and any details could change to better accommodate a movie format. As such, I focused on one aspect that I know (and the movie confirms) that will be the major focus: The friendship between Ash and Pikachu.

It would be nice to see old friends again. But then again, if they are part of the reboot, are they really old friends? Even if Soji and Makoto were replaced by classical characters, you still will likely complain that it's a reboot.

Writers, producers and entire crew who is assigned to make pokemon anime showed kinda disrespect and dishonesty for: iconic older characters they put so much work and effort into (like they betrayed them and everything relevant they ever have brought to pokemon).

-Pokémon past escaping from what truly happened and replacing it with half assed reboot(so that new generations of kids will be even more confused in showing them how there exists two continuity and beginnings of Ash journey).
- older fans themselves giving them absolutely nothing and sending message how their contribution in making pokemon anime popular in first place means nothing for them.
I don't expect you and those of similar view to ever understand this, but many fans do feel that way.

With the main anime, I can understand that. But I can and will not condemn a standalone movie for being an AU to the main series and being honest about itself. Just like all the Dragon Ball and Naruto movies that are non-canon to the main storylines.

 

[Pkmndub]

So there we go. Can this argument about a reboot be over?

 

[Silktree]

If it knows where the bond between Ash and Pikachu are, it can invoke emotions from audience old and new. Even remind people why they love those characters in the first place.

It did the opposite for me. I have to remind myself that they aren't the characters I know.

 

[Flynn]

So, when can we expect the track list for the soundtrack to be revealed?