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Preview M21: Everyone's Story

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Now that Lugia's presence in the film has even more solid evidence (not that I was really doubting it), how much inspiration does everyone want this movie to take from M02?

Personally, I hope it's a mostly original story, though with plenty of references that older fans will be able to pick up on. M02 is probably my third favorite Pokemon movie, and I feel like any sort of retelling will ultimately be underwhelming due to the combination of nostalgia bias and the sheer difficulty of remaking an already amazing movie. Rainbow Hair Girl and the mystery surrounding her is like 80% of the reason I'm hyped for this movie, and I'll be a little disappointed if she's just another Melody.

Now, I don't think they'll go that route in terms of her characterization (I felt M20 did a great job of giving Verity and Sorrel interesting backstories and not at all making them feel like Misty/Brock replacements), but I am a little worried that she'll fill essentially the same role in the plot (not in the romantic sense, but in terms of guiding Ash The Chosen One and helping Lugia). Given how different and truly intriguing she looks compared to all the movie characters we've ever seen before, I feel like that would be wasted potential for her.

Now, barring some incredibly misleading promotional material (which is quite possible), I do think Ash will end up in the role of The Chosen One - the line "without you, the adventure won't start" really gives me that vibe. However, I really hope they change up the things Ash has to do to save the day, and ideally also change the general plot structure a bit, even if it's superficially. This movie has a ton of potential, but I want to see it expand on the weird, unique elements it's already shown us, not just apply them to a pre-existing story.
 
I wonder if we're even going to have companions this time. Makoto and Souji could very well come back since Satoshi does meet up with old friends every now again, but why have them leave at the end of one film if he's going to meet up with them in the next? Perhaps they didn't know what direction M21 would take when writing M20 but they didn't have to make them leave if M20 was a one-shot. I personally kind of like the idea of this film just being Satoshi and this Mystery Girl because it could give the writers plenty of time to flesh her out and make her engaging.

I don't think we're going to get any older characters returning, the credits scene in M20 was apparently supposed to represent Satoshi continuing his journey and running into all of them on the road and asking them for directions. I wonder if that all supposedly happened before this film? I am becoming more and more convinced that this AU!Satoshi is going to cross paths with our Satoshi at one point or another, whether its in M22 or the end of the tv series. What with the wormholes being gateways to alternate dimensions it makes plenty of sense.

ii kanji said:
Kyogre confirmed!!
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No, it's obviously a PokeGod. Probably Doomsay or Doomsday :p
 
kantoskies said:
I don't think we're going to get any older characters returning, the credits scene in M20 was apparently supposed to represent Satoshi continuing his journey and running into all of them on the road and asking them for directions. I wonder if that all supposedly happened before this film? I am becoming more and more convinced that this AU!Satoshi is going to cross paths with our Satoshi at one point or another, whether its in M22 or the end of the tv series. What with the wormholes being gateways to alternate dimensions it makes plenty of sense.
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That's what the ending credits were about? I just thought that it was a nod to the main continuity and to showcase the history of the show through all of the traveling companions. The idea that Ash just met all of them while on the road and asked for directions is kind of weird. It would be possible since this is an alternate universe, so their situations could be drastically different than how they were in the main continuity. It just sounds kind of weird to me on paper.

The idea of Ash meeting this AU version of himself does sound possible too. Since different universes/timelines are a key aspect of the games for this generation, maybe the anime could do something similar. It's just as likely at least that they'll keep the two continuities separated, but they may try to bring them together in some fashion.
 
I forget who it was exactly (I want to say the producer but I could be wrong) but that interview about the film that came out a few months ago said that was the idea behind those cameos. Basically Satoshi stopped them on the road and was like "which way to the nearest gym" or something like that. It's why everyone but Iris and Serena looked confused.

It definitely sounded weird to me too but it was also nice because it means that they all do still exist in this continuity.
 
kantoskies said:
I forget who it was exactly (I want to say the producer but I could be wrong) but that interview about the film that came out a few months ago said that was the idea behind those cameos.
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I don't recall anything like that being said in the interview with Kunihiko Yuyama, so I believe it must be another one. I've been searching for it but I only got some talk about it here. The actual link for the interview is broken, as usual with anything published on a Yahoo! domain.
 
NeoMiniTails said:
Its called an opinion.
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I stated my own.

I much prefer the movie storyline of Charmander that didn't just have a sudden character change that made no sense... (Charmander evolves and suddenly becomes disobedient for no clear reason and then after Ash saves him from dying again, he is good again)... This charmander, in the movie, made you cheer for him and want him to show that he's not useless, not weak, and he could beat him.
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I can understand why you would like Chimchar's storyline more than OS Charmander's, but basically turning Charmander into Chimchar is hardly impressive. OS Charmeleon became disobedient because he eclipsed Ash's skills and felt that he was being held back. Sure, this happened too abruptly and could have benefitted from a better explanation, but Charmander had already undergone training with Damian and the abuse made him feel that he should always aim to be stronger. Since Ash wasn't that serious about training yet, he lost Charmeleon/Charizard's respect and had to remind him (much later) of his selfless desire to protect him. Once they understood each other, Charizard was happier and Ash was more serious.

In the movie, Charmander was just a Chimchar expy and Ash is the one that throws a tantrum when they lose to Incineroar. Pikachu was the focus when all is said and done.

His battle with Ho-oh was consequential. He was able to befriend it as it was his goal. Catching it was never the focus of the movie; it was meeting him. He accomplished a goal.
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That goal leaves a lot to be desired. I didn't want him to catch it, but Ho-Oh's lore is about how its return to Johto would restore the deeper bond between Pokemon and people. The movie may have been about Ash and Pikachu's bond, but nothing happened as a result of Ho-Oh showing up on some mountain. I'd be fine with that if there'd been some foreshadowing, but there was none.
 
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She doesn't look much older and it would only be creepy if she had a crush on Ash rather than the other way around. And if she's actually a Pokemon, then it would just be like Latias again.

I'd like to see a reason for the shoujo art style (which hasn't gone unnoticed) that doesn't involve romance.
 
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Unown Seer said:
I stated my own.


I can understand why you would like Chimchar's storyline more than OS Charmander's, but basically turning Charmander into Chimchar is hardly impressive. OS Charmeleon became disobedient because he eclipsed Ash's skills and felt that he was being held back. Sure, this happened too abruptly and could have benefitted from a better explanation, but Charmander had already undergone training with Damian and the abuse made him feel that he should always aim to be stronger. Since Ash wasn't that serious about training yet, he lost Charmeleon/Charizard's respect and had to remind him (much later) of his selfless desire to protect him. Once they understood each other, Charizard was happier and Ash was more serious.

In the movie, Charmander was just a Chimchar expy and Ash is the one that throws a tantrum when they lose to Incineroar. Pikachu was the focus when all is said and done.


That goal leaves a lot to be desired. I didn't want him to catch it, but Ho-Oh's lore is about how its return to Johto would restore the deeper bond between Pokemon and people. The movie may have been about Ash and Pikachu's bond, but nothing happened as a result of Ho-Oh showing up on some mountain. I'd be fine with that if there'd been some foreshadowing, but there was none.
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OS Charmander was going off the game mechanics at the time, but it did no foreshadowing prior to it happening. Up to the episode where Charmander evolves, he has shown himself to trust in Ash's ability as a trainer and was never disrespectful.

Even without the foreshadowing, they could've made a stronger plot out of it rather than it become a running gag in the same vein as James and his grass Pokemon and Misty with Psyduck. "Charizard Chills" seems to be the only episode I can remember where it goes into more detail of what happened.

Going with the game mechanics, they could've simply used the fact that he evolved and levelled up too early in comparison to his badges... And allowed the original badges have their magical effect on Charizard and make him listen after Ash got all the badges.

Either way, while Charmander/Charizard is my favorite character, the writing was poor in the handling of his character in OS.

I don't see the movie Charmander the same as I see Chimchar. The latter was littered with emotional scars from Paul, literally traumatized.

Movie Charmander just simply made more sense. In OS, many people gained Pokemon without deserving it. Brock deserved OS Charmander because he was the one who saved it, almost got in a fight for it, did everything for him in that one episode.

In the movie, Charmander going with Ash makes sense. He was the one that stood up for him; he was also the one to get him out of the rain.
 
I won't deny that there were writing flaws. I simply don't think that the disobedience plot should have been discarded when the concept itself is valid and effective. I personally find the "let's fight the misguided trainer" plot less interesting, made worse when Cross is a one-dimensional version of Paul.

Both Brock and Ash saved Charmander in taking him to the Pokemon Center, with the latter keeping his tail flame dry. At the end of the day, they cared about Charmander equally and Brock wanted Ash to train him. For the sake of comparison, it was Verity's idea to protect Charmander's tail and Sorrel was the one that really saved it. I guess you think Ash was more deserving of Charmander because he was the one holding it in the cave.
 
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Shoutmon said:
The girl clearly looks older, at least older than Ash. The fact that people think there is gonna be a romance when Ash is ten and the girl is like seventeen is a little creepy
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I don't know if she looks seventeen, but she does look at least a bit older than Ash. That's probably one reason why I didn't think of a possible romance during the trailer.
 
Unown Seer said:
I won't deny that there were writing flaws. I simply don't think that the disobedience plot should have been discarded when the concept itself is valid and effective. I personally find the "let's fight the misguided trainer" plot less interesting, made worse when Cross is a one-dimensional version of Paul.

Both Brock and Ash saved Charmander in taking him to the Pokemon Center, with the latter keeping his tail flame dry. At the end of the day, they cared about Charmander equally and Brock wanted Ash to train him. For the sake of comparison, Sorrel was the one that really saved movie Charmander, but I guess you think Ash was more deserving of Charmander because he was the one holding it in the cave.
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It was valid by the game mechanics, but also made invalid by the game mechanics because the anime different follow the game. As such, if they followed the game mechanics, when Ash got all 8 badges, Charizard would've returned to normal.

It was not effective because the writing did nothing for that plot besides make "Charizard Chills" (which was a fantastic way to get him back on Ash's side.) Beyond that, its just nostalgia because that story arc was not written well. The anime never attempted to explain it; they wanted to make it comedic.

That's like having a sweet adopted child one day, but then they graduate elementary school and within seconds of it, they become a monster with no explanation. At 16, when the parents pays a parking ticket for them, they become a good child again. If this were a movie plotline for a character, reviewers would rave about how contrived the plotline is and forced.
 
Don't worry. This movie got its fair share of criticism anyway. You're just glossing over its flaws because some aspects worked for you.

I didn't say anything about in-game mechanics, and I was referring to the concept rather than execution. There is nothing wrong with a Pokemon outgrowing its trainer; the problem should have just been explained more clearly and resolved more quickly. The movie chose not to even try.
 
Unown Seer said:
Don't worry. This movie got its fair share of criticism anyway. You're just glossing over its flaws because some aspects worked for you.

I didn't say anything about in-game mechanics, and I was referring to the concept rather than execution. There is nothing wrong with a Pokemon outgrowing its trainer; the problem should have just been explained more clearly and resolved more quickly. The movie chose not to even try.
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Everything has its flaws. Sailor Moon is one of my favorite anime, and it has tons of flaws. Hikari is one of my favorite Pokemon companions, and she had her flaws according to others.

Charmander/Charizard is my favorite Pokemon in the anime, but that doesn't change that its character arc was done well.

Having a flaw does not make something bad. If I have a wonderful tasting cake, its flaw is that its unhealthy and people can go on for hours on why it is.

I don't want the problem to be resolved quickly. To be realistic, it can't be resolved in an episode or two. That was an emotional flaw that should've been explored more deeply, not made into comedy. The amount of time it took was good for it to be resolved, the issue was the execution of the writing at that time.

To say that the movie "did not even try" literally makes no sense. They took a character arc and did more than "suspension of belief" with Charmander but actually worked a full story with him.
 
They completely rewrote the story (and heavily condensed it, which isn't necessary with another movie on the horizon) after the encotunter, mostly likely so that they could keep Cross around for the cheap climax with Marshadow. That is not trying to fix a flaw from the original series.

I don't know what you mean by a comedy. I don't recall anyone giggling when Charizard refused to participate in the first match against Blaine or in the league against Ritchie. Cassandra's grandmother (from the Paras episode), Mewtwo, Lorelei and Tad all criticized Ash for his disconnect with Charizard. The former explicitly said that Charmeleon was looking down on Ash for being a poor trainer; the problem persisted because Ash was ignoring the situation. There is not much "suspension of disbelief" going on here unless you believe in "friendship trumps all".
 
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The movie is an alternative universe, not the anime canon (only the movie-universe) and as such, it was not fixing anything.

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Later, because of Charizard burning Ash's face became his signature (much the same as Misty grabbing Brock's ear, James Pokemon being overly affectionate, or Croagunk attacking Brock) for comedy purposes.

Yes, his disobedience caused a sad moment in the league because it was the first time that it actually caused an issue.

While you may not have been laughing, there were tons others who were. Charizard wasn't written for us to ever dislike him so they mostly made it comical, sad when needed, and cool most other times, but that was smart from a marketing perspective.

I didn't care if Ash got criticized. Everyone has criticized him since episode one. I didn't suddenly get sad because one more person had a reason to criticize him.

That being said, it doesn't change how it was written.
 
The bottom line is that the problem was addressed - without humor - in the league and Orange Islands. There were 35 episodes in between, which is why I said there was a pacing issue. Honestly, Charmeleon should have been obedient until evolving into Charizard close to the league. That way there wouldn't have been a gap where the writers resorted to humor too much.

If you seriously believe that there shouldn't have been a disobedience arc in any shape or form, then we aren't going anywhere here.
 
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