Orre - Main Series? Or Side Game?

[Clarky13]

Couple of things here:

1. We are not deciding whether or not the two locations are in the same planet/universe, we are deciding whether or not Orre is a part of the main series of games. At this point in time the Template:Main series states that XD and Colosseum are a part of the main series of games, and so does the Generation III pages, as well as the XD/Colosseum page.

If we change Orre to side game, we have to change XD/Colosseum into being side games, which would also put it under the position of Project Games.

2. Although, the games have connectivity to RSEFRLG, there is no actual in-game reference to Orre or any other aspect of the game. I still think that the region is still part of the Pokemon world. The gameplay is all wrong, but still close enough resemble a main series game.

I'm on the fence with this one guys, but I am (and I'm sorry to disappoint some), I am leaning toward it being a main series game.

 

[SnorlaxMonster]

I think we should split the games into three categories rather than two: Main series, side series and spin-off. Main series is RBY GSC RSE FRLG DPPt HGSS BW only; side series is Colo, XD, Ranch, Stadium, Box RS, etc.; spin-off is Ranger, PMD, Trozei!, mini, Pico/Beena games, etc.

 

[Zeta]

I think we should split the games into three categories rather than two: Main series, side series and spin-off. Main series is RBY GSC RSE FRLG DPPt HGSS BW only; side series is Colo, XD, Ranch, Stadium, Box RS, etc.; spin-off is Ranger, PMD, Trozei!, mini, Pico/Beena games, etc.

I would support this. I think Main Series games should be a GameFreak-developed only designation, at the very least.

 

[βƹβƹ ɱɪɢηѻη]

I would support this. I think Main Series games should be a GameFreak-developed only designation, at the very least.

This. I definitely agree.

What would we name the section for Orre though? Sub-Main Series Region?

 

[Jioruji Derako]

What would we name the section for Orre though? Sub-Main Series Region?

If a new category was created, it would most likely work best with SnorlaxMonster's original suggestion of
Main Series | Side Series | Spin-Off Titles

 

[Vance]

Orre is definitely part of the main series- it is an RPG, has a sequel, and has pretty much all of the same features as the other game (catch and train pokemon, etc.)

 

[The Outrage]

If a new category was created, it would most likely work best with SnorlaxMonster's original suggestion of
Main Series | Side Series | Spin-Off Titles

I always thought that's how it should be categorized, there does seem to be three distinct classes of games: the main series made by game freak, non-game freak games made to compliment the main series games as storage or stadium games, and spin-offs that have little to no connection to main games.

So you're saying interdimensional travel is normal in the Pokémon world?

If your only criteria is that the games make contact with each other, why is Ranger not considered "main series" when its the only in-game source of Manaphy and have many Pokémon that also get transferred over.

Before GenIV the Orre games were the only way how to get many of the missing Johto Pokémon. It was Gamefreak that decided which Pokémon will be catchable in Hoenn and which will be in Orre and the only reason why the Orre games were made by Genius Sonority was that Gamefreak had no experience with making fully 3D console games.

Same point as above, two entire species tied to the Ranger games. Yeah, there were other promotional events that gave them out, but up until Gen V, all games had the event Pokémon appear in them (and in Gen V, the event Pokémon unlock their own events) and the Ranger series was their debut games.

I don't understand why the argument lies on whether or not they exist in the same universe when remakes have clearly overwritten the past games' universe and some people even argue that they think the originals and remakes exist as alternate realities.

 

[Soulweaver]

I'm considering Colosseum and XD both as main series games.

To me, a game qualifies as a main series game if it fulfills the following criteria:
1) The player is a Pokémon Trainer. The game must have a plot line of some sort which involves said trainer.
2) The game involves Pokémon battles, either against wild Pokémon or Pokémon Trainers, using the battle system (or its double and triple battle variations) laid out in Pokémon Red and Green Versions.
3) The game has a region the player can navigate freely (barring limitations necessary for ensuring the proper event order for the plot).
4) The game can interact with other games (i.e. trading).

Both Colosseum and XD fit this. (Stadiums and PBR fail on #1 and #3.)

 

[The Outrage]

Does your criteria really count when its made in mind that you already consider Orre to be main series? It's a bit of a biased criteria if you ask me, just as someone who doesn't believe Orre is main series to have the criteria that the games must be made by Game Freak.

People keep saying it has the same mechanics, but it lacks the same wild-Pokémon mechanics and the majority of your captures are snags from another trainer, something you can't do in the main series. Why are we ignoring this fact when making this criteria or claiming that Orre games follow the main series mechanics? Or why are we ignoring the fact that main series games (the ones we can't deny) are either games that have introduced new Pokémon as catch-able and battle-able or are basically remakes of games that have already met that criteria? If we were to include this to your criteria, it would make it even more exclusive, so I think that rather than making many different points since all that would just be fanon, we should observe the principle of parsimony and take the simplest explanation possible of "games made by game freak". That's really the most objective criteria and is undeniable fact. Yes, I mentioned that was a biased attitude as well being proposed by someone who doesn't consider Orre main series, but at the same time, it is an undeniable fact, whereas Orre games pick and choose which mechanics from the main series they want to observe.

I'm not denying that its similar, but I don't see why we're elevating the Orre games above games like Stadium, Ranch, or PBR which basically serves the same functions as being expansions to the main series, which is why I agree with SnorlaxMonster's proposal. They're clearly not the same as the other spin-offs, but at the same time they aren't "main series" by the simplest definition of what main-series games are.

 

[immewnity]

I consider main series to fall under the same categories as Soulweaver, except stricter on number 4 (must be Pokemon for Pokemon trading), and must be made by Game Freak.

Therefore, it isn't main series IMO.

 

[The Outrage]

Isn't the problem with that fourth criteria new generation games? Take Gen V for example. It's currently the only game in the main series in Gen V. It can't trade with anything, only transfer from past generations, but you'd have to be crazy to say it isn't main series because it doesn't fit that fourth criteria. That fourth requisite requires that there be more than one set of games in a generation when there doesn't have to be. So really, the only remaining criteria is "Made by Game Freak". That;s the problem with setting up an elaborate criteria, it becomes easier and easier for them to be wrong. If you're setting something up, it should be as simple as possible and expand from that. Currently, Game Freak only makes main series games for Pokémon, so that should be the criteria, and if they make other games for the franchise, then expand the criteria further.

Yeah, I guess you can count trading between Black and White, but all other game sets communicate with each other (like the rescues in PMD) so I really think that point should be ignored with respect to games that come in a set.

 

[Soulweaver]

Does your criteria really count when its made in mind that you already consider Orre to be main series? It's a bit of a biased criteria if you ask me, just as someone who doesn't believe Orre is main series to have the criteria that the games must be made by Game Freak.

I didn't necessarily say that should be everyone's criteria, I'm saying it's my criteria (thus backing up why I think Col and XD are main series, not laying the rules just to fit them in).

Also, I don't see the point in the Game Freak rule. Examples from other franchises: Naughty Dog hasn't touched Crash Bandicoot since it left PlayStation One, Insomniac Games hasn't touched Spyro the Dragon since it left PlayStation One. Yet, I doubt what could be called their "main series" is dead.

People keep saying it has the same mechanics, but it lacks the same wild-Pokémon mechanics and the majority of your captures are snags from another trainer, something you can't do in the main series. Why are we ignoring this fact when making this criteria or claiming that Orre games follow the main series mechanics? Or why are we ignoring the fact that main series games (the ones we can't deny) are either games that have introduced new Pokémon as catch-able and battle-able or are basically remakes of games that have already met that criteria?

Story-wise, this is explained by Orre being so arid that few wild Pokémon appear there (and mind you, XD has three areas in which wild Pokémon battles can be fought, albeit not with the usual "shuffle in the grass" method). Similarly, Pokémon snagging is a plot device, a gimmick exclusive to the two games - stealing Pokémon is considered unethical, but stealing from bad guys is THE important detail of the story.

I consider main series to fall under the same categories as Soulweaver, except stricter on number 4 (must be Pokemon for Pokemon trading), and must be made by Game Freak.

Therefore, it isn't main series IMO.

Addressed this above.

Yeah, I guess you can count trading between Black and White, but all other game sets communicate with each other (like the rescues in PMD) so I really think that point should be ignored with respect to games that come in a set.

That's kinda what I meant. They can trade between each other (or between separate game cards of the same game). PMD doesn't fit #1 or #2.

 

[PS3D]

I think if it wasn't done in the Anime, it's not part of the main series.

Colosseum/XD never got anything in Chronicles, did they?

 

[The Outrage]

I think if it wasn't done in the Anime, it's not part of the main series.

Colosseum/XD never got anything in Chronicles, did they?

Except the animé doesn't dictate the games, and that would put Ranger games in the main series when I'm sure most would agree it's a spin-off.

And what would that make of game-exclusive locations like Sinnoh/Johto's Battle Frontier, or the Sinjoh ruins?

 

[βƹβƹ ɱɪɢηѻη]

Well. What's the stitch?

Are there any objections to creating a new section for Orre, like SnorlaxMonster suggested?

 

[Zeta]

Also, I don't see the point in the Game Freak rule. Examples from other franchises: Naughty Dog hasn't touched Crash Bandicoot since it left PlayStation One, Insomniac Games hasn't touched Spyro the Dragon since it left PlayStation One. Yet, I doubt what could be called their "main series" is dead.

The newer games haven't sold anywhere as near as good/had as good a reception as the older ones, and they're widely considered shovelware right now. And for Spyro at least, most of them are an entirely different continuity.

Story-wise, this is explained by Orre being so arid that few wild Pokémon appear there (and mind you, XD has three areas in which wild Pokémon battles can be fought, albeit not with the usual "shuffle in the grass" method).

Which is nonsensical because there are plenty of Pokemon adapted to live in arid conditions. I mean, just off the top of my head: Cacnea, Skarmory, Sandshrew, Numel, Larvitar, Claydol, Trapinch, Gligar, etc. etc. Pokemon can always live in harsher conditions than humans (like inside Volcanoes!) so if conditions are so bad Pokemon can't even live there, than humans should pretty much drop dead upon setting foot in the area, no matter what technology they have.

 

[SnorlaxMonster]

Since there seems to be an argument regarding what a main series game is, I would like to suggest the following as how we classify them:

Main series: You play as a Trainer who catches Pokémon and collects Gym Badges, to ultimately fight against the Pokémon League

Side series: Can have a two-way interaction with main series games (meaning that the main series game can send it things, and it can send the main series game things). This ensures that we don't classify things like Ranger as side series.

Spin-off: Any other Pokémon game

 

[Pokemaster97]

Once again I agree with you SM. This is the best suggestion so far and I beleve it should be the way we categorize the games. Because I myself do not think the orre region is a main series game.

 

[MisterE13]

Perhaps the stipulation that the Side Series also features a Trainer... just no real Gyms or a League?

 

[Masatoshi]

They just basically don't follow the same mechanics as the original games (granted, lot of them are present in side games, but not everything you see in Red/Green/Blue/Yellow/Gold/Silver/Crystal/Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/FireRed/LeafGreen/Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver/Black/White), you are a trainer, you travel around a region, catch Pokémon, acquire badges, defeat a lot of trainers, challenge and ultimately defeat the higher ups (Elite Four + Champion), those are the main games. If they don't have what has been stated until exhaustion, then they're not main games.