Speculation Pokémon core series canon.

[Heretofore]

This is just a quick thread I'm making to post a quick question.
Very minor spoilers from Gen V and below core series follow.

Throughout the Pokémon games, there have been differences in versions of games that happen concurrently, however minor. At one point in Pokémon Black & White, you can meet Cynthia and she challenges you to a battle and kicks your ass. Though after five soft resets and the last of your reserve Max Revives, you can finally beat her and she mentions how you remind her of a trainer from a while back, who did that something or other with Giratina. (I've not finished Platinum yet actually but that the plot somehow involves the mascot of the game wasn't that big of a spoiler.)

So this got me thinking, I assume that the events of Pokémon Platinum are considered canon for the purposes of the core series, rather than Pearl or Diamond? Can we assume that the third game of each generation is always to be taken as canon over the other two? If that is indeed the case, I'm a bit thrown off when if comes to Black & White and Black 2 & White 2 versions. I haven't actually finished Black 2 yet either, but I can assume it's about as different as Black was to White, both of which I've finished. Furthermore the plot of Black 2 & White 2 didn't replace the plot of Black & White like Platinum did the plot of Diamond & Pearl, so an unspecified one of each duo would have to be considered canon? They even go so far as to acknowledge the presence of the other in each of these games (people in White Forest talk about Black City and vice versa), but it's never really expanded on.

As far as I can tell, there's no real given explanation beyond that, is there? And you're able to trade with people having the same experience as you in a world identical to your own that nobody's ever heard of because they don't exist in your world? Are we to assume some sort of parallel universe theory? Are you still reading this? Am I boring you yet? More importantly, have my italics started annoying you yet? Good, keep the tears, I want to drink them.

In Red & Blue, it's basically been as simple as minor redistribution of Pokémon throughout the region, which the professors all seem to think you care a whole lot about for some reason. But in Pokémon Yellow, the third of that series, the game is based on something that's based on the games, incorporating a whole bunch of crap that the anime made up that shouldn't really be taken as canon over the game canon (serious pet peeve). But in FireRed & LeafGreen, they added new features that weren't in Pokémon Yellow, so I guess we can assume that they dismissed any canon Yellow held (despite Yellow still having features that FireRed & LeafGreen didn't)? But then what about Silver & Gold, and Crystal? In the second generation remakes, they left out a whole plotline that they'd created for Crystal version which I was actually rather fond of, which I'm guessing isn't considered canon any more? In this case they don't have the fall-back of 'Oh, it was just anime non-canon nonsense to begin with so whatever'.

I don't know.

So many questions! =D

 

[Silktree]

But in Pokémon Yellow, the third of that series, the game is based on something that's based on the games, incorporating a whole bunch of crap that the anime made up that shouldn't really be taken as canon over the game canon (serious pet peeve).

You say that as if Yellow had drastically altered the story to match the anime. It didn't. What it did do was have Pikachu be the starter with the original starters all being obtainable later on (how was this a bad thing?), and replace a few nameless grunts with two admins: Jessie and James. Unlike in the anime, Meowth wasn't a talking Pokémon and the Team Rocket duo (not a trio) didn't follow the player or try to steal Pikachu.

But in FireRed & LeafGreen, they added new features that weren't in Pokémon Yellow, so I guess we can assume that they dismissed any canon Yellow held (despite Yellow still having features that FireRed & LeafGreen didn't)? But then what about Silver & Gold, and Crystal? In the second generation remakes, they left out a whole plotline that they'd created for Crystal version which I was actually rather fond of, which I'm guessing isn't considered canon any more? In this case they don't have the fall-back of 'Oh, it was just anime non-canon nonsense to begin with so whatever'.

I think it's wrong to treat the third versions as completely non-canon on account of the more recent remakes. The same thing is probably going to happen with Emerald and ORAS, which is to say that some Emerald elements will probably be left out or dumbed down. Many people seem to think that HGSS carried over Crystal's Suicune plot, but as you correctly pointed out, this isn't really the case. While Eusine was brought back and his early appearances in HGSS were largely unchanged, the climax in Tin Tower never happened in HGSS. As a result, the remakes never shed light on Ecruteak's history or the legendary beasts' connection to Ho-Oh. Another story element which wasn't carried over to HGSS at all is the GS Ball event. So are those elements non-canon? That would be quite silly, wouldn't it? It would only serve to make the Pokémon world less interesting.

I think that Red's team in Generation II (and HGSS) goes to show that in a way, the Yellow elements are still canon. Red may not have started with a Pikachu, but he still ended up with one, as well as the three starters. I'm guessing that there is a story behind this, which we never got to see in FRLG but it might have happened during the three-year gap between the Kanto and Johto stories. Similarly, who's to say that Crystal's Tin Tower and Ilex Forest events never happened? Perhaps the fact that Kris herself wasn't carried over to HGSS is related. The remakes established that an unknown trainer received Professor Elm's third starter, and we can infer that this wasn't Lyra/Ethan (the opposite-gender character) since they were never shown with any Pokémon but Marill. Perhaps that trainer was Kris, and her adventure covered the missing parts of Crystal's story, as well as events that we didn't even see in Crystal itself.

I don't know how much thought Game Freak put into the canon story, but as fans, we should accept that there is more to the Pokémon world than what we see in any of the games. I think it's limiting to simply take the most recent incarnation of every story at face value.

As far as I can tell, there's no real given explanation beyond that, is there? And you're able to trade with people having the same experience as you in a world identical to your own that nobody's ever heard of because they don't exist in your world? Are we to assume some sort of parallel universe theory?

There is actually an NPC in Opelucid City who asks the player to receive a trade from the opposite version. I don't recall the exact details, but it was an experiment to see if communication with the past was possible (since Black's Opelucid City is the future version of White's). Granted, this seems to be a case of gameplay and story segregation, since the games never explained how trading with another universe was even possible (and it didn't help that the NPC referred to the communication as time travel without mentioning parallel universes at all).

But yes, I do think it's safe to assume that there really are two parallel universes, although the (noticeable) differences between the two may be limited to Unova. I had hoped that this would be properly explained in B2W2 (I never wished for a third version that would bridge the two stories), but alas.

 

[Lillian]

This is a universe where there is more than one creature with full manipulation of time travel. I'm firmly on belief that each and every game is canon, for each and every player, at the same time, but in different universes.

 

[Heretofore]

But in Pokémon Yellow, the third of that series, the game is based on something that's based on the games, incorporating a whole bunch of crap that the anime made up that shouldn't really be taken as canon over the game canon (serious pet peeve).

You say that as if Yellow had drastically altered the story to match the anime. It didn't. What it did do was have Pikachu be the starter with the original starters all being obtainable later on (how was this a bad thing?), and replace a few nameless grunts with two admins: Jessie and James. Unlike in the anime, Meowth wasn't a talking Pokémon and the Team Rocket duo (not a trio) didn't follow the player or try to steal Pikachu.

You're completely right and I didn't mean to offend. I realised after I posted that I probably exaggerated because, as I said, it bothers me. I would have gone to edit the post after but I'm new and it was awaiting administrative approval before I could do anything with it.

Spoiler

I just really really don't like it when people call the PokéCenter girl 'Nurse Joy' as if that's something that's even been a thing in the games at all ever in general.

And now Pikachu ensures that I will never use it by disregarding its canon cry of fifteen years in favour of the anime's one.



Blehhhhhhhhhh

I like the Origins anime very much.

The remakes established that an unknown trainer received Professor Elm's third starter, and we can infer that this wasn't Lyra/Ethan (the opposite-gender character) since they were never shown with any Pokémon but Marill. Perhaps that trainer was Kris, and her adventure covered the missing parts of Crystal's story, as well as events that we didn't even see in Crystal itself.

I don't know how much thought Game Freak put into the canon story, but as fans, we should accept that there is more to the Pokémon world than what we see in any of the games. I think it's limiting to simply take the most recent incarnation of every story at face value.

This is an entirely valid point and I'd forgotten about the third Pokéball altogether. I really need to replay these again.

As with the hints at things that make sense with regards to the Black/White interactions, I guess we can assume that GameFreak are intentionally not clarifying themselves on just enough for us to be able to slot in whatever we think works best with the currently established story.

Part of me wanted to see if there was any canon set in stone rather than speculate, I guess because I'm used to sequels coming out and mercilessly kicking my theories in the ass. I suppose I just need to try very hard to convince myself that Pokémon will never do this to me. <3

This is a universe where there is more than one creature with full manipulation of time travel. I'm firmly on belief that each and every game is canon, for each and every player, at the same time, but in different universes.

I had just assumed that these were local legends blown out of proportion over time. In Pearl version, in the big boss encounter with Palkia, controller of all of space, I caught it in a Quick Ball. Didn't even get to appreciate the music proper. Kind of anticlimactic. I figure either these deities either have lost their powers over time, or just never as powerful as everybody makes them out to be. The he said, she said could also excuse the conflicting reports some of the legends give us.

 

[BlackButterfree]

To be fair, Blue was the third version in Japan. So Blue would be the "canon" third version, along with Crystal, Emerald and Platinum. And in the B2/W2 Memory Link events, it's implied that Iris was Gym Leader before becoming Champion, so that would make White 1 canon, but still leave B2/W2's canonicity vague. Same with X/Y, although if there's a Z version, that'll most likely be the canon version.