DISCUSSION: Self inserts. Good or bad?

[Kyrî]

I think the medium in which we experience a self insert has a lot to do with how we respond to them. In a video game like Pokemon a self insert is unique to each individual player. The protagonist of a game you create is going to be different from mine or anyone else. It's not only in appearance but in actions like what Pokemon you decide to catch and what moves you decide to use to complete the game. Your insert may not speak in Pokemon but that just leaves what they say up to interpretation in your own mind. In an interactive medium like a game your self insert has only an audience of 1, which is you, the player. That's why I think it's generally not condemned within games

For the sake of clarity, I'm not saying "it's hypocritical to condemn self inserts when we are fans of this franchise" but rather, "well, the games do the same, how could we blame novice writers to do what they see in the official media?" We learn from observation after all. Specially when we don't know better.

When you change the medium of the media you consume when it comes to a self insert I think you end up with something similar to my Fire Emblem example. A self insert may be appealing to the writer as it is themselves in a magical world that is not their own and taking actions they dream of but the magic is lost on a different reader if they aren't like the writer. It's like how playing pretend is much more fun from your perspective than if you were to watch someone else doing it. It's for this reason that a self insert needs to be more than a writer inserting themselves into a story just because. There needs to be a degree of subtlety and a give and take situation present to make a self insert a proper character in their own right to be taken seriously. But I guess at that point they wouldn't be 100% the author now would they?

Being a self insert and a proper character aren't mutually exclusive, that's why I talked about more serious media. Dorian Gray from the eponymous novel, for example, is a barely disguised avatar of Oscar Wilde (and so are Basil and Harry to some degree). Same for Meursault (The Stranger), almost novel from Paul Auster, Rodia (Crime and Punishment) and a very largue list. Let's think about it. You and I are persons with flaws and virtues, personalities and opinions on different subjects. Values, vices, quirks and everything you would want in a character. What we need to write a self insert who also is a proper character is take a good look at ourselves and our experiences, and make some effort to blend that avatar into the narrative. Just as some authors take inspiration from people they know, you can use yourself for the same purpose, since you know him better than anyone else.

They aren't bad by nature but they just tend to get misused a lot by writers trying to live vicariously through their creations. Whether its due to a lack of experience or a surplus of self indulgence, it differs from case to case. Regardless, when a writer does it, it tends to be pretty obvious like in a lot of bad Isekais with their recognizable style of "average" kid with a cardboard personality being whisked into a video game/fantasy land where they become overpowered for no effort and become surrounded by beautiful women who are wholly devoted to them for ill explained reasons.

Yeah, that's my point and the most important thing in this. The flaws in those works aren't inherent to the self insert character, the problem is how they handle them. The problem is that the main character became overpowered with no effort, or how they got a harem for ill explained reasons or have the personality of a cardboard. And the source of these problems is the lack of skill from the author, not the fact that they used a self insert. In fact you can see the same flaws and sometimes to a higher degree in works without one.

 

[Steel_Justice]

For the sake of clarity, I'm not saying "it's hypocritical to condemn self inserts when we are fans of this franchise" but rather, "well, the games do the same, how could we blame novice writers to do what they see in the official media?" We learn from observation after all. Specially when we don't know better.

Fair enough, but I think that it's important for anyone trying to engage in any topic to fully understand why something works or why something is done instead of simply imitating it because it's what they are exposed to. It is something that is difficult to expect out of someone without a lot of experience as a writer or even a media watcher so I guess that contributes to the problem.

I was simply answering the question I thought you had asked. I thought I was answering the question of why people in the Pokemon fandom seem to be fully accepting of the player characters and their nature of self inserts but being more apprehensive about self inserts when viewed through less interactive sources of media. It is a case where the double standard is justified since an interactive game and a story you have no control over are very different things.

Being a self insert and a proper character aren't mutually exclusive, that's why I talked about more serious media. Dorian Gray from the eponymous novel, for example, is a barely disguised avatar of Oscar Wilde (and so are Basil and Harry to some degree). Same for Meursault (The Stranger), almost novel from Paul Auster, Rodia (Crime and Punishment) and a very largue list. Let's think about it. You and I are persons with flaws and virtues, personalities and opinions on different subjects. Values, vices, quirks and everything you would want in a character. What we need to write a self insert who also is a proper character is take a good look at ourselves and our experiences, and make some effort to blend that avatar into the narrative. Just as some authors take inspiration from people they know, you can use yourself for the same purpose, since you know him better than anyone else.

I hear you on that. Even some of my favorites like Lord of the Rings and Jurassic Park have them to a degree. Even JK Rowling admitted that Hermione is an exaggeration of her younger self. In the end, a self insert is another tool in the trope box that can be misused in the wrong hands. Everyone has strengths and flaws but the self inserts that are derided by readers are often the result of the former being exaggerated and the latter being non-existent. I guess the take away is to be honest when making a self insert and knowing when to reign the wish fulfillment in.

Also, good to hear from you again .

 

[Greninjaman]

I think we can agree that the trope by itself isn't bad. It's how you execute it that matters.

 

[sleepwick]

mhm, i think to some degree self-inserts are inevitable. as writers we find it easiest to write about things we've experienced ourselves since...well, we have that experience and understand it from an emotional standpoint, and that makes it easier for us to craft a narrative around it. and the same thing applies to characters. you're going to find it easier to write a character who's similar to yourself and has similar experiences than you will a character that's totally different from you.

 

[Handium]

It really depends on how it’s written, like everything else it depends on the writer.
Not inherently bad but not inherently good, I don’t really read anything with it tho.