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DISCUSSION: Self inserts. Good or bad?

As with any writing trope, it depends on the execution. I have my trainersona (who is a self-insert) for my Pokeverse and I enjoy coming up with cool scenarios for her and indulging in some wish-fulfillment. Wish fulfillment and self-indulgence isn't inherently bad.

I think writing a self-insert well takes a lot of introspection. It took me a while to come up with a storyline for my trainersona as I had to stop a lot and think, "would I actually do this, or is this something I would say I do to appear better?". Once I got comfortable examining aspects of my own personality and background, it made it easier to write her into the narrative with my other non-self insert OCs and canon characters. So yeah she suffers from some of my larger flaws and she's not always in the right, and she doesn't get everything she wants.

One thing I like to do with writing in general, but particularly my self-insert, is to do a give-and-take method. For example, my favorite starter line of all time is the Mudkip line, yet my OC was born and raised in Unova. She does get a Mudkip but not when she starts as a trainer (she, in fact, does not get a traditional starter but an Audino). Rather she received one years later after she went to medical school and got a chance to travel abroad to Hoenn for a semester. It balances my want to have a Swampert on my trainersona's team, but without breaking the rules already established in canon for what was available in Unova when she would've gotten a chance to have her first mon. Same thing with a few other plot points with her that are more on the wish-fulfillment side of things to allow me to be indulgent without making it seem like the rules of my Pokeverse are bending backward just for her

I think one thing that's good to remember is the quote "different strokes for different folks" (and this goes not just for self-inserts but writing in general). Not everyone is going to be interested in your self-insert, and that's okay.
 
Knowing as much about yourself is certainly important when making a self-insert. I do agree that wish fulfillment and self-indulgence is ok if kept to a minimum. Don't want to go overboard with them.
 
Greninjaman said:
Knowing as much about yourself is certainly important when making a self-insert. I do agree that wish fulfillment and self-indulgence is ok if kept to a minimum. Don't want to go overboard with them.
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I agree there has to be restraint when building self-inserts, I don't think it's entirely bad to just go buckwild when designing self-inserts and their stories. Sometimes it's healthy to just go wild and write that story like your 5 year old self would. You can always go back and scale things down and sometimes that moment of escapism can open the door to better writing plots than if you were trying to work in an constrained format

Going to use my trainersona once again. I've had her for about 12 years now (since BW was released) and back in the day when those Mary Sue tests were all the rage I would constantly put her through them (both the general one and Pokemon specific ones) and I was very afraid to really go wild with her so I never made her more than anything stronger than an ace trainer. I was really afraid to innovate with her story and thus my trainersona ended up being very bland. Inoffensive as far as the Mary Sue test but there wasn't much to her story.

It wasn't until last year that I brought her back and with a mindset that self-indulgence isn't inherently bad. So I decided to over-indulge for a bit just to get it out of my system. Let her be the protagonist of some of my favorite mainline entries. It was fun playing some of my favorite entries in the series as her. Ultimately my trainersona is not a Pokemon protagonist, as none of the stories really fit what I wanted for her. But I ended up keeping some aspects from those self-indulgent runs that I think honestly made my trainersona a more interesting character (and also my overall worldbuilding is just a lot better) than when I was too focused on making sure she passed those Mary Sue tests. When I mentioned being self-reflective with self-inserts in an earlier post, I learned how to do that with those self-indulgent runs. Being able to look at certain story beats (like the whole Team Plasma arc) made me really stop and think "what would I do, especially as my teen self do if some dude asked me to go on Ferris wheel with him and then he tells me he's the King of the group that's been harassing me and my friends?"
 
Epic Spheal said:
Going to use my trainersona once again. I've had her for about 12 years now (since BW was released) and back in the day when those Mary Sue tests were all the rage I would constantly put her through them (both the general one and Pokemon specific ones) and I was very afraid to really go wild with her so I never made her more than anything stronger than an ace trainer.
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Oh my gosh you did those tests too???

I've done self inserts in different forms across the years. The first was a standard trainer. I did many a Mary Sue/Pokémon OC test for her. Eventually, I aged her up, made her a tired Champion living on caffeine and trying to deal with these gosh darn criminals, and made a different self insert—a psychic still trying to find herself. I don't write OCs as much anymore, but to an extent, I could probably still consider the characters I write about to be self inserts, as I project a lot of stuff onto them (partially as a way to dissociate myself from my issues). In all of these cases, self inserts reflected myself but also my relationship with myself.
 
It quite solely depends on how well they're written for me. I don't personally mind self-inserts in fanfiction as long as the writer doesn't go completely overboard with them in a story. As an OC writer, I can understand why some people would want to insert themselves into their favorite fiction. I don't write self inserts, all my characters are completely different from me, but really, as long as they're not completely over the top, you do you.
 
Self-inserts are fine, honestly. Like...write what makes you happy, but in the same breath, don't expect your piece to be considered for high honors if your self-insert defies the laws of the setting. Honest to god, learning roleplay etiquette on character power levels is a good way to wrap your head around what makes one that won't get you yelled at...which is usually something on the low-mid level, or to at least have a high-powered character who's still compelling as a person to follow narratively. That last one I learned from one of my girlfriends. Unfortunately being compelling means having flaws, and such, which most people on their way to write a power fantasy don't even consider. Which, again, is fine. Just be ready to catch some criticism from your commenters if you're posting what you write.

And I agree to the comment about self-inserts being good to explore your identity and derive comfort from. That's also what I mean when I say write what makes you happy. If you wanna go and ship yourself with that gym leader nobody cares about, by all means, go ahead! That's what fanfiction is for. (It's also for exploring elements of the setting that the author never did, and such, but I digress.)

I also just...generally wouldn't recommend writing with a self-insert if you don't take well to criticism. People on fanfiction-posting sites are mean, and they'll rip you a new one for no good reason sometimes. It's a lot harder to resist that bleed when the character they're insulting is...really just you. Which can get real nasty real quick if you've been around those spheres for a while. Believe me, I've seen some shit.

That said. I write a self-insert! I haven't done much with her beyond coming up with a raw concept and a design and giving her a particularly interesting romantic history. But she's me, made to kick ass with my favorite Pokémon before she retires to the sidelines as a Professor to make love to Roark and study the world she loves so much. The world I love so much. One of these days I'll sit down and write more proper fic for her. It'll be a miracle if I post any of it though.
 
if i write or see a self insert i prefer it to be subtle, maybe like a cameo of sorts. though i do create OCs with a lot of traits based off of myself, i do want to have them be different from what i am. ig to sum it all up self inserts depend on how they are portrayed or built.
 
Bumping thread

imo it’s all about how you do it

my friend is writing a fanfic for a show she likes and um. I don’t wanna say this to her face but its. Hilariously self insert tbh.

like shes just the main character now

the plot is ok (ive never heard of or watched that tv show before her. Still haven’t watched it), but like… she’s dating a guy and she’s the main character now. Not saying It’s bad but I just wanted to use that as my prime example of one of the only self insert fics I’ve ever read
 
"As long as you don't make your character a MARY-SUE" what is this, 2010 deviantart cringe culture when people would bully children for making their (usually female) characters too flashy or powerful because "errmmm that's not realistic nerd emoji" while not putting male characters even remotely under the same level of scrutiny? Go wild, be creative. Mary-Sues aren't real.
 
soulsilvers said:
"As long as you don't make your character a MARY-SUE" what is this, 2010 deviantart cringe culture when people would bully children for making their (usually female) characters too flashy or powerful because "errmmm that's not realistic nerd emoji" while not putting male characters even remotely under the same level of scrutiny? Go wild, be creative. Mary-Sues aren't real.
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They are though. They're characters who break the rules of the setting (including the characterization of others) without regard to established rules or what should even be possible. And yes, male characters are very much capable of being mary sues (it's a gender neutral term. "Gary stus" are what don't exist). Anyone who says differently just has massive double standards.
 
I personally don’t like when people make a self insert and make them the most main character ever, but I’m not gonna go and hate on them. If it’s on a site I might just stop reading. If it’s a friends I won’t say anything and just ignore it. But I can’t change the way my brain thinks to not like that kind of character.
 
Breaking the rules of the setting? Damn girl, that's badass!

I don't ever remember suggesting male characters aren't ever accused of being MS, just that much more often fem characters back in the day got scrutinized for a lot for things that male protagonists are praised for.
 
i definitely agree that self inserts are a good way to explore yourself as someone who has done that itself. self inserts are fun and people should do them.

how it impacts a story is entirely neutral and depends on implementation. even if it doesn't really make for a well-written story what's important is that the author has fun. it's fair to not like reading it just don't be a dick.
 
honestly, i don't think "mary sue" self inserts are a big deal. most of the time the people who make these are kids just having fun and it's ultimately harmless. i think it's fine if it personally turns you off from reading a piece of writing, but at the end of the day it's not something i'd actively find myself complaining about because i was once that kid with the overpowered loved by everyone self insert oc myself
 
I always thought self-inserts were a cringy teenage phase you grew out of, so imagine my surprise when I learned they're everywhere on SpaceBattles, a site whose main demographic seems to be grown men.
 
I have mixed feelings on self inserts. One one hand, most of them feel very forced, with everyone bowing to their will with their level 100 monster of a team, and a guy/lady or two to accompany them (who is of course head over heels for them). There's not much character development, and many that are finished feel forced.

I should know, I was one of those people

But on the other hand, I think it's a great way for young writers to learn what NOT to do. Many of those who write the type of self inserts I mentioned are most likely very young or haven't written much before, simply wanting themselves to be in a story. Like Wick said, it's pretty much harmless. If it turns you off from reading, then that's your personal opinion. But in the future, with small bits of advice and improvement over time, the once "bad" or "cringy" self insert can be turned into something fresh and new entirely (then again that depends on the person but who cares what hecklers think. If you don't have any words of encouragement or advice for improvement, get outta my face.)
 
Well, I'd like to start by saying that most of us are Pokémon players. And in Pokémon games, the main character is practically you. They have zero personality. You can make them look like you, put your name and build your team as you want it. Then you suddenly become a prodigy. Everyone loves you and bow downs to you. They keep praising your skills, your strategy and how strong is the bond with your Pokémon. The legendary Pokémon take a liking to you. Even the villains tend to respect you or try to use you because you are special. And the ones who dislike you are clearly wrong and you'll beat them like the losers they are. Even the anime and specially the manga share some of this. Let's be real. Pokémon is full of self insert and wish fulfillment...

... why should we condemn fanfics with the same characteristics?

I get that most of us want to write better. We consider ourselves writers (as we should) and put so much effort in improving our writing. We want to write compelling if not complex characters and thriving plots for them. But it doesn't mean there's something wrong with self fulfillment fanfics with characters are barely disguised avatars of the autor picturing themselves among the characters they like, in the fictional world they like and doing the amazing things they would like to do just for the fun of it. In fact, they don't need to be disguised at all.

But don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be paternalistic and say something like: "well, self inserts and wish fulfillment are okay for low quality fanfics". In fact, when we look at more serious literary works, self inserting becomes more and more common. Timeless classics some of them. After all, the best way to explore and express the world as you see it is through yourself.

I think most people against self inserts and wish fulfillment tend to associate these tropes with bad writing just because most fanfics of this type are, well, bad. And most of them are bad because the fanfickers behind them lack the experience and skills to do something better. And when they learn with practice and improve their skills, they too associate self inserts with their shameful first works and want to move from them. But correlation doesn't equal causation in this case. When you lack the skills and experience in writing, it doesn't matter the premise, it will probably suck. And a capable writer may work around the negative aspects associated with wish fulfillment and deliver a compelling story. A selfinsert can be interesting if they have some personality and good interactions with other characters. Wish fulfillment can be fun to read if the setting is properly explored and one pay attention to detail. In the end, I think, is a matter of execution. And while I don't write that kind of fanfics, I'm not opposed to give them a chance when I encounter them
 
Kyrî said:
Well, I'd like to start by saying that most of us are Pokémon players. And in Pokémon games, the main character is practically you. They have zero personality. You can make them look like you, put your name and build your team as you want it. Then you suddenly become a prodigy. Everyone loves you and bow downs to you. They keep praising your skills, your strategy and how strong is the bond with your Pokémon. The legendary Pokémon take a liking to you. Even the villains tend to respect you or try to use you because you are special. And the ones who dislike you are clearly wrong and you'll beat them like the losers they are. Even the anime and specially the manga share some of this. Let's be real. Pokémon is full of self insert and wish fulfillment...

... why should we condemn fanfics with the same characteristics?
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I think the medium in which we experience a self insert has a lot to do with how we respond to them. In a video game like Pokemon a self insert is unique to each individual player. The protagonist of a game you create is going to be different from mine or anyone else. It's not only in appearance but in actions like what Pokemon you decide to catch and what moves you decide to use to complete the game. Your insert may not speak in Pokemon but that just leaves what they say up to interpretation in your own mind. In an interactive medium like a game your self insert has only an audience of 1, which is you, the player. That's why I think it's generally not condemned within games.

There are some games that do bungle this though, the Fire Emblem games has been through a bit of a storm within its playerbase about how recent games have handled the "avatar" characters. I myself have played a couple of those games and my thoughts for the negative reaction to the self inserts of those games is the lack of a connection between the player and the "avatar" that is supposed to be them. In Fire Emblem games the avatar isn't a silent protagonist going with the flow on a journey they make for themselves. They are often someone super special (and often very OP and game mechanic defying) that is inserted into a narrative involving much more interesting characters since their personalities are often derided for being plain and boring like cardboard. As minimum as their personalities are it is enough to make them a character at is distinctly not the player that is controlling them. I think it says a lot about the avatars in the Fire Emblem franchise that the least derided one is the avatar from Fire Emblem 7. The avatar in that game is silent and isn't even a controllable unit, they are actually the in-universe character ordering the units around as you do when playing the game itself.

When you change the medium of the media you consume when it comes to a self insert I think you end up with something similar to my Fire Emblem example. A self insert may be appealing to the writer as it is themselves in a magical world that is not their own and taking actions they dream of but the magic is lost on a different reader if they aren't like the writer. It's like how playing pretend is much more fun from your perspective than if you were to watch someone else doing it. It's for this reason that a self insert needs to be more than a writer inserting themselves into a story just because. There needs to be a degree of subtlety and a give and take situation present to make a self insert a proper character in their own right to be taken seriously. But I guess at that point they wouldn't be 100% the author now would they?

They aren't bad by nature but they just tend to get misused a lot by writers trying to live vicariously through their creations. Whether its due to a lack of experience or a surplus of self indulgence, it differs from case to case. Regardless, when a writer does it, it tends to be pretty obvious like in a lot of bad Isekais with their recognizable style of "average" kid with a cardboard personality being whisked into a video game/fantasy land where they become overpowered for no effort and become surrounded by beautiful women who are wholly devoted to them for ill explained reasons.
 
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