Writers' Workshop General Chat Thread

[Lyrebird]

I think with 50 Shades it was a lot more than just trashy stuff. Watching reality TV for free from the comfort of your own home is a lot dfiferent than going out and spending money on three terrible books. 50 Shades is also a lot more successful globally than probably anything else of its type: all the shit that airs on E! and TLC doesn't actually rate that highly.

Keeping up with the Kardashians proves that theory wrong and don't forget the Georgie/Jersey Shores and all those red carpet stuff. People like random trashy shit for shits and giggles. It's fun, it's just mindless stuff. I come back from work and hell do I want to watch something heavy straight off the bat.

You guys are so overthinking it.

 

[AetherX]

I think we're all well aware by this point that we'd be vastly more successful authors if we wrote erotica.

As for why it's popular, I'm with Lyrebird. It's easy-to-consume braindead escapism. Shit, that's why I read fanfiction half of the time. Not something I can get snooty about. The only thing exceptional about 50 Shades is that it was spread around enough that it took off.

 

[AceTrainer14]

That may be well and true, but few things take on the dominant force that they do in the way 50 Shades did. The book outsold Harry Potter for christs sake.

BTW, a reminder to people about the awards. If your story has previously won an award, you need to have written 20k since the last time it was judged for it to be eligible this time around. This only applies to past winning stories, not stories that were only judged or stories from winning authors that have not won

 

[Lord Kyuubi]

A bookshop customer was once recorded asking if there was an illustrated copy of Fifty Shades available. I'm serious.

On topic, I agree to a point, in that I do generally prefer not to think too much about what I'm reading/watching. Well, sometimes, depends what it is partly. That being said, I do still rather prefer to be reading/watching something of at least decent quality. Most of the time, 'trashy' stuff just frustrates me far more than anything.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Yeah, I mean it's laziness that gets on my nerves more than anything else. I don't care if I am watching an action film (Or whatever the genre is that supposedly excuses laziness), the plot still has to make sense

 

[Misfit Angel]

Am I the only one that likes to be challenged while reading? I'm often taking mental notes down of things that look important, only to find that there's never a reference to that piece of information again.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Am I the only one that likes to be challenged while reading? I'm often taking mental notes down of things that look important, only to find that there's never a reference to that piece of information again.

Well, sorta. I like to read books that are unashamedly clever, but I don't like it when authors are obviously trying to be clever.

 

[Flaze]

wait, I don't quite get what you mean there Kim o.o

 

[Misfit Angel]

What I mean is, how often do we find (published) stories that are truly brain-tingling? Stories with unexpected but masterful twists, stories with deep layers of intrigue and complexity? Maybe I'm reading all of the wrong stuff, but I rarely find that. For example, a minor detail revealed in an early chapter that has enormous relevance and consequence later on in the story, something that only a reader who's actually paying attention would pick up.

That's the kind of stuff I want to see when I'm reading.

Edit: Also, it's really strange working so hard on a project and not being able to share it. I just finished chapter 7 of the story I want to take to a publisher and it's so different not having commentary of how the story is progressing or how I'm doing at my fingertips. It feels kind of empty.

 

[diamondpearl876]

I can't say I ever pay attention that deeply anymore. With all the literature classes I've taken, the idea that all details have "enormous relevance and consequence" was shoved down my throat but I rarely saw that to be true, no matter how closely I analyzed. If it WAS true, the writing came off as stiff and uninspired. As a reader I ended up believing instead that all details have some kind of symbolism/meaning attached to them... but only if you want them to have symbolism/meaning. And you get to interpret what the symbolism means to you in the grand scheme of the story.

Anyway, so I'm not sure if you're reading all the wrong stuff or not. I'd imagine mystery novels would have that kind of complexity and intrigue, but I don't read those and I don't know if that's your cup of tea. I know when writing my own stuff I often try not to dwell on the smallest of details... partly because I think "who cares? I do, but my readers won't" and partly because "I don't know if my story's going to take me in a completely different direction somewhere down the road, thus rendering this detail irrelevant anyway". What I've found works instead is that little details that I put in without thinking about them, tend to become important later on without my having to force them to be that way. I rather prefer to let my subconscious do the talking. It works out a lot more often that you'd think. That's more fulfilling for me as a writer, and as a reader I find that writing produced so strictly and crazily detail-oriented makes me not want to read as much.

 

[Lord Kyuubi]

I like to read books that are unashamedly clever, but I don't like it when authors are obviously trying to be clever.

Well, I wouldn't want to discourage someone from trying just because they can't pull it off yet. It's a definite problem with the story yes, but I feel putting it that way may be oversimplifying things?

 

[AceTrainer14]

I like a book to surprise me, but I also like enjoyable stories that kind of just plod along without any need for mystery or big reveals. I think the worst thing thing that can come from a reading experience would be to see the big twist coming too early. I read one mystery-ish book a few months ago and the big twist became blindingly obvious about 100 pages before it ended.

I also prefer layered stories i.e. plot, character, etc, whether it's a published novel or a fan fic. There just needs to be something other than pleasant writing to draw me in.

Edit: Also, it's really strange working so hard on a project and not being able to share it. I just finished chapter 7 of the story I want to take to a publisher and it's so different not having commentary of how the story is progressing or how I'm doing at my fingertips. It feels kind of empty.

Beta reader?

 

[Beth Pavell]

Well, I wouldn't want to discourage someone from trying just because they can't pull it off yet. It's a definite problem with the story yes, but I feel putting it that way may be oversimplifying things?

Well, the ending of Inception rather demonstrates what I mean. Specifically, the last shot

Spoiler

Here you have a story that is unapologetically clever, and for the most part it works. Right up until the last shot, where we're treated to a very ambiguous symbol. When I first saw it I took it to be a last minute "Or is iiit?" moment poking holes in the happy ending - an entirely satisfying ending that was thoroughly earned, by the way - for the sake of throwing in one last existential question before the credits roll. If I remember correctly, the official explanation for that is supposed to be that it doesn't matter whether the last scene is a dream or not ... which is just as bad, contradicting an entire character arc right at the last second.

The point is, it's an example of a plot point that's there not because it supports the plot, but to show off how clever the author is. There's a moment like that in Fulgrim, of all things, where the author devotes an entire scene to a character reading obscure classics like William Blake. In a canon that's set in the year 30,000, after multiple civilisation-wide disasters, and the author expects us to suspend disbelief for a scene that just shows off that he's familiar with Blake's mythology. And it's a shame, because Fulgrim is quite a thoughtful book for something published by the Black Library.

 

[AceTrainer14]

Well, the ending of Inception rather demonstrates what I mean. Specifically, the last shot

Spoiler

Here you have a story that is unapologetically clever, and for the most part it works. Right up until the last shot, where we're treated to a very ambiguous symbol. When I first saw it I took it to be a last minute "Or is iiit?" moment poking holes in the happy ending - an entirely satisfying ending that was thoroughly earned, by the way - for the sake of throwing in one last existential question before the credits roll. If I remember correctly, the official explanation for that is supposed to be that it doesn't matter whether the last scene is a dream or not ... which is just as bad, contradicting an entire character arc right at the last second.

Spoiler

Doesn't it fall over after the credits or is that just a rumour?

I agree that twist or random endings can defeat a magic of a book. I read one last year where it turns out that one of the supporting characters has really been the villain all along, but the author then has to spend

 

[Lord Kyuubi]

Well, the ending of Inception rather demonstrates what I mean. Specifically, the last shot

Spoiler

Here you have a story that is unapologetically clever, and for the most part it works. Right up until the last shot, where we're treated to a very ambiguous symbol. When I first saw it I took it to be a last minute "Or is iiit?" moment poking holes in the happy ending - an entirely satisfying ending that was thoroughly earned, by the way - for the sake of throwing in one last existential question before the credits roll. If I remember correctly, the official explanation for that is supposed to be that it doesn't matter whether the last scene is a dream or not ... which is just as bad, contradicting an entire character arc right at the last second.

The point is, it's an example of a plot point that's there not because it supports the plot, but to show off how clever the author is. There's a moment like that in Fulgrim, of all things, where the author devotes an entire scene to a character reading obscure classics like William Blake. In a canon that's set in the year 30,000, after multiple civilisation-wide disasters, and the author expects us to suspend disbelief for a scene that just shows off that he's familiar with Blake's mythology. And it's a shame, because Fulgrim is quite a thoughtful book for something published by the Black Library.

Well, going by those examples, and that sort of thing, yes I would have to agree with you. Going out of the way of the plot for reasons like that doesn't seem reasonable at all. Thanks for clarifying this, I'm with you now.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Spoiler

Doesn't it fall over after the credits or is that just a rumour?

I agree that twist or random endings can defeat a magic of a book. I read one last year where it turns out that one of the supporting characters has really been the villain all along, but the author then has to spend

Spoiler

It doesn't. It wobbles, but the credits roll before we see whether it actually falls or not

 

[Flaze]

Well depends, I mean if you believe some theories the top wasn't actually that guy's item so it's irrelevant whether it stopped or not.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Well - bit of a non-sequitur, I know - if I'm going to be treated like a child at the archery club, I'm going to act like one. Want me to put my name on my arrows, fine, I will: 考鸭

 

[AceTrainer14]

I must say, I thought my love affair with Game of Thrones was over, but the new season has really picked up. The last two episodes have been, dare I say, enjoyable asides from a few little niggles (i.e. continued senseless murder) that have become more problems over time, and though it does feel a bit like fan service in some aspects, its nice to actually see the plot moving along after such a long period of stagnation.

 

[Misfit Angel]

So far I've missed every episode, despite having an HBO subscription. I told myself I wasn't going to watch it after the train wreck that was last season, but I've been hearing overwhelmingly positive remarks. I may have to reconsider.

Also, I'm a little amused that 'continued senseless murder' is one of your sticking points, considering it's practically the central pillar the rest of the story relies on