Nightmare Marill
Whirlpool surfer
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2020
- Messages
- 25
- Reaction score
- 47
Cynthia and Iris. The guy champions are too boring to me for some reason.
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You are right that he doesn't change his goals entirely. But he does cease his crusade against Pokémon battling specifically.
> "It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything. There's no way a person like me, someone who understands only Pokémon— No, actually... I didn't understand them, either. No way could I measure up to you, when you had met so many Pokémon and were surrounded by friends..."
N's conception of Pokémon being used as tools was warped by Ghetsis, who deliberately exposed him exclusively to Pokémon that had been subjected to cruel slave labor by Team Plasma itself. His entire perception was borne of brainwashing. But reality, the outside world, was nothing like that, and as soon as N ventured into that world, he began to see how wrong he was, and that feeling only continued to grow as he was exposed to more and more beneficial human/Pokémon relationships, which ultimately culminates in him admitting that he didn't even truly understand why Pokémon wanted, either.
> By being with Pokémon, humans can continue toward new horizons. By being with humans, Pokémon can exhibit their true power. That's what Zekrom/Reshiram taught me: the ideal/truth for Pokémon and me. And someday both ideals and truth/truth and ideals will come together... Then Pokémon and humans will be freed from the oppression of Poké Balls."
> "Someday... Pokémon and humans will be bound together without Poké Balls. They will simply trust and help one another. Make that kind of world."
This is him having come around from his previous belief that Pokémon needed to be separated from humans in order to "regain" their lost power. Now he sees that being with humans brings out their power more than anything, and redirects his ideological campaign to be against Poké Balls, rather than battling, because Poké Balls are a lingering symbol of inequality - a tool used to capture, even if the Pokémon in question may indeed want to join that human. What N wants now is to cut out the middleman and create a world where humans and Pokémon can communicate their wants and needs to each other directly, which is a social advancement that his abilities make him uniquely positioned to facilitate.
> "Pokémon battles do nothing more than hurt Pokémon... That's how I understood it, and that's why I hated battles. But it's not that simple. Pokémon battles decide winners and losers, it's true. Yet they do so much more. Your Pokémon! You! Your opponents! And their Pokémon! Everyone can see what wonderful things the others have to contribute! That's right! Accepting different ideas--different beings--changes the world like a chemical reaction! Pokémon battles are like a catalyst: a small component that leads to big changes! My friend Zekrom/Reshiram taught me that... And it's the formula I've derived from traveling the world. I want you to think for yourself what it means."
And N's saying here that the way he used to view battles was flawed, and that there are many benefits to them which help people and Pokémon better understand one another.
Most relations result in partnership, not just some. Literally the vast majority of human/Pokémon relationships depicted in the series, regardless of medium, have been positive, mutually beneficial things. People like Paul (I guess, I'm not familiar with anime continuity and don't really care about it) are in relatively short supply - they are the statistical outliers. Time and time and time again, the games have been heavily critical of Trainers who pursue strength for its own sake. That's why Silver exists, and why Cheren exists. We could not possibly be beaten any more over the head than we already are with the idea that Trainers have a responsibility to do right by their Pokémon, and that Pokémon lend their power to us if they approve of us and believe in the goals we wish to achieve.
As the protagonist, yes, we seek to obtain a Pokémon so that we can become a Trainer, because that's just how the game is structured. But the fact that we do see so many other professions in the world which demonstrate alternative ways for people and Pokémon to work together illustrates that battling is not all there is to it. I mean, it's right there in Oak's first dialogue:
> "Hello there! Welcome to the world of Pokémon! My name is Oak! People call me the Pokémon Prof! This world is inhabited by creatures called Pokémon! For some people, Pokémon are pets. Others use them for fights. Myself… I study Pokémon as a profession."
There are also plenty of other forms of competition throughout the series. Contests, Musicals, etc. Pokéstar Studios isn't even competitive, but it's another alternative form of coexistence.
I'd also contest the idea that Pokémon are captured "against their will." Certainly, yes, that probably does happen at times, especially with criminal organizations. But there's also evidence that wild Pokémon choose to join up with Trainers, of their own volition. The reciprocation ceremony in Alola. Passimian evaluating the Trainer who's attempting to catch them, by analyzing their throwing form. The Unova dragons themselves choosing a hero to align themselves with.
I don't think I've ever been entirely clear on whether N was collecting Badges or not. Probably the foremost evidence that he didn't is that his name does not appear on the Gyms' Certified Trainers statues, whereas you, Cheren, and Bianca all do.
But at the same time, he definitely does challenge the Elite Four, which I don't think you're supposed to be able to do without collecting the Badges - that's why they have the Badge Check Gates. It would be one thing if he just flew right up to Alder's doorstep and challenged him directly, but why go through the traditional pomp and circumstance of defeating the Elite Four?
(I agree with your overall point that N did not hold the title, but isn't Ethan vs. Red kind of an odd example since Ethan had indeed become Champion prior to battling Red?)
I could be wrong, but I don’t think N even went through and collected the badges, did he? You have to do that before officially challenging the Elite Four and Champ. Otherwise, anyone who just randomly walked up to Alder and beat him in a battle would be considered a “Champion”. If you don’t have the title, then you really aren’t one. You’re just a strong Pokémon trainer.
For example (recent anime spoiler):Leon defeated Lance in a battle. That doesn’t make Leon the Indigo Champion.
If HGSS is to be trusted, Ethan defeated Red. Does this now make Ethan a Champion by your logic as well? (Since Red in-universe is basically built up to be insanely strong.) By extend of this logic, Red is defo stronger than some Champions (Looking at Diantha in particular).
Does this make him automatically the Kalos Champion? It doesn't.
N isn't the Champion. Never has been. No matter how many hoops you try to jump through to make it happen.
You can type as much text as you want, but the fact N straight up refuses the title ensures it so he isn't a Champion. He is Champion-level in terms of power, yes, but that doesn't make him the Champion.
Adding to that, to be recognized as Champion you need to have collected all the Badges in the region, beat the Elite Four AND beat the Champion and then accept the title. He already didn't do the former, he didn't the last one either, so he can't be the Champion, at all.
What you feel does not change the rock-solid facts that a Champion needs to 1) defeat the current Champion, and 2) formally accept the title afterwards. Power alone matters not.And with your answer I prove my point: like FinnishPokéFan92, you're holding to a formality not only of having a title but accepting it, you're holding to what has been established so far and you don't even have the sight to consider that there may be other points of view about what makes a champion, only lifting the veil to admiti it in terms of power but making a conclusion only based on what you have as criteria. The fact that I prefer to go by strengh doesn't mean that you're wrong in going by formality but the reverse is also true.
Also, it's not a question of typing a certain amount of text, is about presenting arguments to present my point and not being blind and sure that I'm the only one correct and that everyone else that doesn't follow my line of thought is wrong. Learn how to make a healthy discussion of ideas and present points of view.
To yet again prove my argument on why I believe N can be considered a Champion and why I prefer the power shown and not the title held, I'll give you an example of nobility: it's people's actions and traits that make a person noble but I must also accept and recognize that besides this, nobility can be obtained by buying said title and at the end of the day I recognize both but prefer to give more value to nobility earned by acts and that pertains a certain person that by the wealth used to get one and the system of nobility associated with monarchy. Why? Because this last one is only a noble as long as there's a system that values formality while a noble person will be recognized as such in most circunstances simply by doing what's perceived as noble actions. Am I wrong? No. Are the ones that prefer to buy wrong? No. There's more to it than just a simple way, there's more than black or white...too bad that you didn't get the one of the games' message.
The King has been warming up to you?Steven and Cynthia! the former had such a good glowup in ORAS haha, and I always loved him even before that! he had a cool design and it was amusing to see him nerding out about stones. Cynthia is very pretty and was a huge challenge for me in DPPt. runner up trophy goes to Leon though, he's been warming up to me lately... and Mustard, but mostly for his cool battle music.
The King has been warming up to you?
Alder's strength lies in his involvement in the story, the battle with him is just bonus.Alder is unfortunately probably my least favorite.
Alder's strength lies in his involvement in the story, the battle with him is just bonus.
What you feel does not change the rock-solid facts that a Champion needs to 1) defeat the current Champion, and 2) formally accept the title afterwards. Power alone matters not.
I say that because the definition of a Champion is those terms: must defeat a Champion and accept the position of Champion. Just being as strong as a Champion isn't enough. There is no other definition of it.Yet again, yes, those are the formal criteria that ingame are required alone and that you so blindingly accept and follow. I'm speaking about something else that is beyond that. If you also don't accept other interpretations of what being a champion means instead of formalities, then stick to to your "rock-solid facts".
I don't think that's very polite.And that's your intelectual maturity, a cheap gif.