Mafia Corrupt?! Mafia - ENDGAME - Mafia Win

[Dale]

Look at my recent day 2. Why do I come up with independent scum AND town reads? I am the first to call out leetic for the "calling out logic without scumhunting" point and the first to call out Elementar for the "being apprehensive about blame for the shot" read. I am the first to articulate the difference between Eevee and Elementar. This shows actively trying to game solve, which you probably should be townreading.

This on its own is probably the only weak defense I give in the post as a stand-alone defense, and can amount to "I gave new reads so I'm town." This is a bad reason to read me as town. This is null in a vacuum.

That's not the point of the read though. It implies trying to solve the game independently and having incomplete information in doing so. The history this builds of active game-solving, in addition with trying to get Eevee's alignment in a low post environment where it's hard for me to generate other reads should scream town member trying to figure out who else is town. THIS is what you can read me town for. The reads themselves are a symptom of being town.

Look at the read I give on Elementar. I think that he is a bit scummy, but I still think he's a bad shot even if by some chance he isn't the one with a gun. This shows a town perspective of wanting to keep players in the game who can be read and solved. This is townplay. Scum don't care about these sorts of things. Town should because town functionally have two win conditions: find all the mafia, or build a large enough town circle that eventually excludes the mafia. Keeping players that I know my read can change on shows that I'm actively considering the fact that even though there are some signs of scum play in his actions, there are other things that he's doing that are towny and I want to evaluate on them later when they become more relevant and easier to press on. Mafia just want to look like they are scumhunting and tend not to think about the game as vying for position to solve the game.

This is another great reason to read me town. It shows I'm thinking about how to win the game from a town perspective. At this point as scum I'm more concerned with asking myself the question "how do I survive," not "how do we get enough confirmed town"? I already recognize that some players are probably going to scumread me until kingdom come. Scum will lose the game if there are too many confirmed town. I NEVER as scum try to leave alive question marks. The fact that I'm willing to do so should show that I have town interests at heart.

 

[Dale]

@Midorikawa, hopefully that made it clear how it's not WIFOM and actually just a good defense that maybe you should re-evaluate on.

 

[Dale]

Might be going to sleep soon. Since it seems like the bullet at night is instant and might happen while I'm gone, here's a Last Will in case Elementar makes the super wrong choice before I get on again (but please don't, I feel like my defense was really good and honest, and you have time to wait on shooting anyway):

I'm pretty sure leetic has red blood in his veins. For being mafia. Not for being a normal human being.

leetic/Sigurd team makes some sense given Sigurd's bad defense of him but I still think leetic is a better shot. But at least a Sigurd shot has a higher chance of hitting mafia than hitting me! His read on me was also bad and he should feel bad about it =P

I don't think Hellcrow is gonna poison anyone, but he seems like a pretty good player. You can never be too careful.

Don't sheep Midorikawa, although that will be obvious from the flip. That said, she's probably town.

Elementar, I tried to explain my thought process to you. Hopefully you come to recognize why I was doing it as town. If you're not Elementar, ask yourself why Elementar shoots me and if it comes from a town perspective and why he doesn't shoot leetic/Sigurd who aren't gamesolving or have nearly the same level of town tells as I've given this game. I want to believe he's town, but I did that last game and got burned by him/his team shooting me N1 lol

Eevee pls carry

Jack pls post

DB I tried

 

[Elementar]

When did we say that Hellcrow was the poisoner?

 

[Dale]

We didn't. I'm saying I don't think he is.

 

[jackatlasred]

Umm... What do you guys want me to say? I mean I've said what I though and nothing has changed. I like drums idea, piko and dale are both suspicious for wanting the gun. Their defense isn't convincing and i don't think sigurd said anything to really defend himself. I mean he said piko wasn't all that bad.

 

[Elementar]

^^ I agree tbh. That's why I'm either going to shoot Dale or Sigurd.

 

[Snowy]

Eevee pls carry

Huh?

 

[Midorikawa]

Explain why I don't vote for Eevee d1 as scum. It's free and easy to do as scum. Do you think I really plan that to use in an N2 potential Night Kill scenario?

WIFOM. "If I was mafia then why didn't I do this. Mafia would do this." I've seen people do things that don't seem like a mafia thing to do when they're mafia, and townies do super scummy things.

I've given my current stance on this page.

There has been plenty discussion and your response is really that you have nothing to say? That's a cop out.

So my defense is all WIFOM. Let's go through it step by step.

Look at my day 1. I am trying to find town. I ping out Eevee specifically so that I can get an early read on him, since I played with him last game and he was a fairly easy read for me there. I then try to evaluate on Hellcrow but given a lack of content, I don't have any real basis to read him off of. This shows an innate desire to WANT to read him, which is indicative of town. Mafia should already know everyone's alignment.

This isn't WIFOM. This is self-analysis of my d1. Eevee can attest that a big reason why he wasn't lynched day 1 in Presidents was because I put up a big gigantic town shield and said "this dude is town." I read him FAST. It is to emy benefit and to benefit of town that I a. find town and more generally b. generate my easier reads early.

The reasoning on Hellcrow is worse in comparison, but I had a good town read off of a similar situation I gave Magnificence Incarnate that I probably should have kept pushing. Stopping that push on the read didn't help us when he got mislynched. I'm giving the exact same read here. Town have a desire to find town. Mafia have a desire to appear to try to find town. I feel like it's pretty clear from tone I was doing the former with Hellcrow. I'm fine if people disagree with the logic behind this read in particular, but I happen to think it's a good read people should add into their repetoire. Regardless, it's definitely not WIFOM.

Yes it is, and also an argument that just as easily works for mafia. Plenty of mafia will defend townies just to look town. And I mean the kind of defense that can risk them a lynch on themselves. Heck I've most likely done it myself because I defend someone when their case lacks evidence. So WIFOM.

I also recognize that shot should be in the hands of someone who will shoot mafia. Trying to find a CONFIDENT town is an important part of being able to win this game, when the gun is in all likelihood the only village kill. My refusal to give a gun willy nilly to Eevee just because I town read them is indicative that I actually care about the outcome of that shot. Scum!me always votes for Eevee there because I know that early game, players who aren't confident don't usually lynch people who hard town read them, because they like the vote of confidence. I do this because then odds of a mafia shot would be less because I've removed myself from being a realistic candidate of being shot and it would be so easy to justify with "but I town read him." Think about the reasons WHY I would not give gun to a town read.

This is the read that you should be reading me town for. In an unfamiliar set up with no formal lynch and the only town kill being used by a single person, you should ask yourself what my priorities would be as a town member. Priority number 1 is to try to get the gun, because I know I'm town and I am confident in my reads. Failing that, I want to put the gun in the hands of someone I trust as both town and as someone who will shoot the mafia. Given the weird set up, you would have to live in the world where I fake this realization in compelling fashion, I give up the opportunity to push for a town member who isn't confident to receive the gun on the guise of them being "top town" that would almost certainly get 0 flack from people (has anyone given this scumread on anyone? The answer is no), and I give up the opportunity to push for a town member who is never shooting me N1 to have their finger on the trigger.

These go against scum win condition.

These do not go against town win condition.

This is not WIFOM

I bolded part of that. Voting for someone not confident, or someone that multiple had issues with at that time could work against mafia. And mafia's number 1 goal is to look town so they'll do things that could hurt them in the risk of it making them fit in. For example: recently in the 100 mafia. There was an incident and the host said he had to change some roles. Later a player claimed a role and said they started with another one. I remembered the whole thing on how some role's got changed, and while it was against my best interest to tell town this since I was the last mafia, and the whole idea seemed like a big lie. But I told them anyways because I knew that if I was town then I would have done it.

So no it doesn't go against scum win condition. The only thing that would is purposefully getting you and your teammates killed. And by being mafia, generally most of your actions secretly go against town winvcondition.

So yes it is WIFOM because all you're saying is that you would do this and that as town and mafia.

And as for the bold-rhetorical. Why would mafia want to give town a gun? To mafia all townies are town reads. And let's face it: Mafia wish they would get the gun every phase.

I'm going to shoot either Dale or Sigurd. (The latter due to Piko's scummy behaviour).

And what do you think of Sigurd's behavior.

Look at my recent day 2. Why do I come up with independent scum AND town reads? I am the first to call out leetic for the "calling out logic without scumhunting" point and the first to call out Elementar for the "being apprehensive about blame for the shot" read. I am the first to articulate the difference between Eevee and Elementar. This shows actively trying to game solve, which you probably should be townreading.

This on its own is probably the only weak defense I give in the post as a stand-alone defense, and can amount to "I gave new reads so I'm town." This is a bad reason to read me as town. This is null in a vacuum.

That's not the point of the read though. It implies trying to solve the game independently and having incomplete information in doing so. The history this builds of active game-solving, in addition with trying to get Eevee's alignment in a low post environment where it's hard for me to generate other reads should scream town member trying to figure out who else is town. THIS is what you can read me town for. The reads themselves are a symptom of being town.

I go through games and make giant wallposts asking questions, and promoting discussion and arguments, and well basically scumhunting. Does that mean I'm town when I do that, even if I'm chatting it up with scum in a QT?

I'm always one of the first to call out players for bad logic, and making reads is something everyone does regardless of alignment. You said it yourself that it's a weak defense, and it's true because those are things mafia do. They will find reasons, and try to start mislynches.

Look at the read I give on Elementar. I think that he is a bit scummy, but I still think he's a bad shot even if by some chance he isn't the one with a gun. This shows a town perspective of wanting to keep players in the game who can be read and solved. This is townplay. Scum don't care about these sorts of things. Town should because town functionally have two win conditions: find all the mafia, or build a large enough town circle that eventually excludes the mafia. Keeping players that I know my read can change on shows that I'm actively considering the fact that even though there are some signs of scum play in his actions, there are other things that he's doing that are towny and I want to evaluate on them later when they become more relevant and easier to press on. Mafia just want to look like they are scumhunting and tend not to think about the game as vying for position to solve the game.

This is another great reason to read me town. It shows I'm thinking about how to win the game from a town perspective. At this point as scum I'm more concerned with asking myself the question "how do I survive," not "how do we get enough confirmed town"? I already recognize that some players are probably going to scumread me until kingdom come. Scum will lose the game if there are too many confirmed town. I NEVER as scum try to leave alive question marks. The fact that I'm willing to do so should show that I have town interests at heart.

Scum would love a circle of townies that trust them so they can manipulate them to win. If town don't trust the scum then they lose. And no one is every truly confirmed save innocent children. Confirmed townies are not vanillas or sketchy roles. The closest we get to it is cop checks and un-counterclaimed roles like doctor. That whole argument doesn't even fit in this game.

@Midorikawa, hopefully that made it clear how it's not WIFOM and actually just a good defense that maybe you should re-evaluate on.

...It's WIFOM.

Might be going to sleep soon. Since it seems like the bullet at night is instant and might happen while I'm gone, here's a Last Will in case Elementar makes the super wrong choice before I get on again (but please don't, I feel like my defense was really good and honest, and you have time to wait on shooting anyway):

Appeal to emotion.

I'm pretty sure leetic has red blood in his veins. For being mafia. Not for being a normal human being.

leetic/Sigurd team makes some sense given Sigurd's bad defense of him but I still think leetic is a better shot. But at least a Sigurd shot has a higher chance of hitting mafia than hitting me! His read on me was also bad and he should feel bad about it =P

So not finding someone scummy is scummy? Then by your logic you ar scum for supporting Eevee and he's your scumbuddy.

I don't think Hellcrow is gonna poison anyone, but he seems like a pretty good player. You can never be too careful.

You can say that you "don't think he's the poisoner" However this is clearly an attempt to make him look scummy.

Don't sheep Midorikawa, although that will be obvious from the flip. That said, she's probably town.

No I'm totally mafia.

Elementar, I tried to explain my thought process to you. Hopefully you come to recognize why I was doing it as town. If you're not Elementar, ask yourself why Elementar shoots me and if it comes from a town perspective and why he doesn't shoot leetic/Sigurd who aren't gamesolving or have nearly the same level of town tells as I've given this game. I want to believe he's town, but I did that last game and got burned by him/his team shooting me N1 lol

Funny I did the same level of work and more than some in the 100 mafia. I was most definitely not town. After once lynching the doctor, I've learned that activity and effort in thread does not make one either alignment.

Eevee pls carry

What?

And on another since apparently no one noticed it. I know @Dale that you claimed mayor. However I will say I don't believe that. Looking up mayor I found governor and town of salem mayor. Governor's stop lynches-there is no lynches in this. Town of Salem mayor gets to be cleared and then triple votes. If you were that you would have used it already. See the faults with that claim?

 

[Midorikawa]

Umm... What do you guys want me to say? I mean I've said what I though and nothing has changed. I like drums idea, piko and dale are both suspicious for wanting the gun. Their defense isn't convincing and i don't think sigurd said anything to really defend himself. I mean he said piko wasn't all that bad.

And how do you expect Sigurd to give a defense for Pikochu's actions? Are they one entity?

 

[Elementar]

Honestly, I don't think Sigurd as provided a large defense. Provided a bit in the one hit, but sort of went quiet afterwards. Dale has at least put effort into his defence, so I have to give that to him.

 

[Midorikawa]

Honestly, I don't think Sigurd as provided a large defense. Provided a bit in the one hit, but sort of went quiet afterwards. Dale has at least put effort into his defence, so I have to give that to him.

And how do you expect him to defend himself of Piko's actions? Are they one entity? No. They have the same role, but not the same mind. He just subbed in and should have a chance to show us if he's town or not. He can't defend against Piko's actions because he's not Piko.

Also just because someone hasn't posted for a bit doesn't mean that they're lurking. People have lives outside of the internet.

 

[Sigurd]

Yeah I have a life, and I won't be around today anyone which I alreayd said I think?

I can't defend the actions of what someone else does, I came in caught up on 8 pages gave my thoughts on the game and the players. What else do you expect me to do? I'm leaning towards a Dale/Elementel team right now, it seems like El is activity trying to find a reason to shoot me over Dale which makes very little sense.

 

[Elementar]

I won't be active for quite a few hours guys. Just a heads up.

 

[Snowy]

I hope you've submitted your shot....

 

[Dale]

"You must not know bout me
You must not know bout me"

-Beyonce, "Irreplaceable"

Ok.

Midorikawa.

I play to my win condition. I do not actively do things that go against my win condition unless I am playing with people who I feel I cannot beat without giving myself defensible outs. This is a very strong meta read of mine that you would do well to recognize.

You also do not seem to understand what WIFOM is. It is NOT wifom to ask, for example, "why did I lynch scum on day 1?" This is not WIFOM because the alternative to lynching scum is to lynch town. This very clearly has an adverse effect on the win condition of scum. You are CORRECT that scum do town-sided things over the course of the game, and that one scum lynch does not a town make. You are BLATANTLY WRONG when you assert that explaining why multiple actions I make that scream town when taken holistically should lead you to a town read is WIFOM. You are implying that every town read that's ever happened from "this dude pressured and voted sum" is bad because the odds are the same that one glass is poisoned versus the other. This is clearly incorrect. As a result, you should be evaluating the likelihood of living in the world of "Dale is town actively thinking about the game mechanics and win condition" is way higher than "Dale is paranoid scum who decided not to give Eevee a gun because he wanted to use that as an argument for a defense 2 days from now." Please evaluate those two worlds. You're in one of them. I happen to know which one.

Beyonce does too.

"To the left, to the left"
-Beyonce, "Irrepleacable"

WIFOM is "why didn't I kill Zexy; he was my top town." THIS is WIFOM because it implies a false choice between alternatives that have similar to the same values of return: having one town dead over another.

Look and evaluate rates of return. As I'm doing. PLEASE. I would LOVE to have a teammate who is willing to pour through posts be focused on actual mafia. PLEASE escape the tunnel and come back to the land of the living. We miss you

 

[Dale]

Ugh that formatting didnt come out the way i wanted it. I even typed extra words so the line "Dale is town[...]" would end up completely on the left :/

 

[Zexy]

Spoiler

1. @Mighty Eevee;
2. @Hellcrow;
3. @jackatlasred;
4. @Elementar;
5. @Midorikawa;
6. @Sigurd;
7. @Dale;
9. @leetic;
@Kakashi Hatake;

Elementar pointed the gun towards the villager named Sigurd and pulled the trigger.

Spoiler

Dear Pikochu Sigurd,

You are Vanilla. Your only power is your vote, so use it wisely!

You are allied with the Town and win when all members of the Mafia are defeated.

Spoiler

Sigurd has died. He was Vanilla Town.

After a good night’s sleep, the villagers found another poisoned person in the morning.

Midorikawa was poisoned! She can still post, but will die at the end of Day 3. She is not eligible to receive the gun as she would die before getting to use it in Night 3.

Day 3 has begun! It will end in 48 hours.

 

[Midorikawa]

@Elementar why Sigurd? Why was SIGURD scummiesr than Dale? And I want evidence against SIGURD NOT PIKOCHU.

 

[Dale]

Hoo boy. Can we shoot leetic yet?