Your controversial opinions

[Queen Of Space]

I love Gen 7 but I hate USUM it’s too little changed and too much at the same time even sacrificing an important character arc (Lillie) to give more for Ultra Necrozma. I genuinely find base SM way better story wise

 

[Juliyet]

Moderator Note

Hello folks!

Some of the discussion here has been a little on edge in terms of responses. We think it could be dialed back a bit.

Please try and be respectful with your opinions. It's okay to disagree or be contrary of course, but try to keep responses without charged language or ill intent.

We know we all can get a bit emotional making our cases, but we want this area to be a positive area for discussion where everyone is comfortable to participate.

That is all thanks!

 

[Bolt Strike]

Something's better than nothing.

It's better than RS, but not Emerald. Emerald had multiple post game areas that were a bit meatier to explore, such as the Battle Frontier, Desert Underpass, and the Safari Zone expansion

These routes were supposed to be open and confusing. The open ocean shouldn't feel like some linear water route. You're supposed to be searching the seas for the evil team, not be guided directly to their location.

The openness isn't the issue, having open waters to explore is certain a good thing. It's the emptiness and lack of content that's the problem. Adding the Ace Trainers is a bandaid on a bullet hole, they need to do MUCH more than that to make the water routes interesting to explore. I'm thinking more along the lines of them adding more landmarks, adding some islands with actual tall grass, etc.

I've never felt the type diversity to be an issue; unlike the fire types of Sinnoh, dragons are supposed to be rare.

No type should be rare enough that you can't make a full team out of it. That hurts teambuilding for any kind of type specialist that needs them (whether it be NPCs such as gym leaders and Elite 4 or monotype players that favor that particular type).

Also, complaining about the things ORAS didn't improve from the originals doesn't show that Emerald is better when Emerald also didn't do this.

It doesn't show that no, but it shows that ORAS failed to fix RS' flaws when it had the opportunity. And they definitely had more of an opportunity in ORAS than RSE since 6th gen had twice as many Pokemon as 3rd gen and they had sufficient options even in some of the rarer types to have a full team's worth of every type.

Ruby & Sapphire are also Hoenn. They did bring Hoenn into gen 6, even if they didn't incorporate all Hoenn games.

They needed to incorporate all Hoenn games because Emerald is far closer in age to RS than ORAS and was equally inaccessible. What is someone in 2014 that was too old to be playing the GBA supposed to do if they wanted to experience the Emerald content? This is the whole point of remakes.

 

[Norzan]

They needed to incorporate all Hoenn games because Emerald is far closer in age to RS than ORAS and was equally inaccessible. What is someone in 2014 that was too old to be playing the GBA supposed to do if they wanted to experience the Emerald content? This is the whole point of remakes.

Honestly never thought of that. How are players that joined the franchise much after Emerald's release supposed to enjoy the content that it added? ORAS was the opportunity to do this and now most likely won't ever happen, and only access to Emerald is through a GBA and Emerald game cart. This is why i find it kind of baffling when people start saying "i don't care if this or that is not in the game" because, yeah, you might not care, but others do and many others could end up enjoying if the content was in the game and they get to experience it.

I never cared for walking pokemon myself, but i am glad when it's in the games because other people get to enjoy it. Same for Delta Episode, i hardly cared for it, but others got to enjoy it, and i think that matters more than me not caring if it's not in the game. Games should have MORE content, not less.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Honestly never thought of that. How are players that joined the franchise much after Emerald's release supposed to enjoy the content that it added? ORAS was the opportunity to do this and now most likely won't ever happen, and only access to Emerald is through a GBA and Emerald game cart. This is why i find it kind of baffling when people start saying "i don't care if this or that is not in the game" because, yeah, you might not care, but others do and many others could end up enjoying if the content was in the game and they get to experience it.

I never cared for walking pokemon myself, but i am glad when it's in the games because other people get to enjoy it. Same for Delta Episode, i hardly cared for it, but others got to enjoy it, and i think that matters more than me not caring if it's not in the game. Games should have MORE content, not less.

Well to be fair at this current point in time putting Emerald on NSO is an option, although thus far they've been reluctant to put any main series game on NSO yet, not even RB, so we'll see if that comes to pass. The opportunity is there though with GB and GBA on NSO, they're perfectly capable of putting the entirety of Gens 1-3 on NSO right now.

As far as at the time with ORAS though, no. GBA emulation on the 3DS wasn't as feasible then, so they needed to remake it. And they didn't, so that generation of children didn't really get a legitimate opportunity to experience Emerald's content.

 

[Norzan]

Well to be fair at this current point in time putting Emerald on NSO is an option

I'll be dead when GBA Pokemon games get to NSO given how ridiculously slow Nintendo is putting even just N64 games there. There's literally only like 12 GBA games there and half of them are Mario games. Plus we saw how long it took to even just put RBY in the 3DS, it was literally five years after the 3DS release where having RBY and GSC at release would made the launch period better.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

to be clear, i think most of the added features from Emerald should have been in the remakes (except for the story because it's ass, and the desert underpass because it makes your fossil choice meaningless); i just don't think that the absence of these things is as big a deal as people make it out to be. ORAS did some things wrong, yes, but it also did things right, like introducing mega evolution to the region and fleshing out the motives and motivations of the villains. It also added cool new features like the dexnav and soaring. And of course the story is better than emerald's by virtue of not taking Emerald's story changes into account.

 

[Bolt Strike]

to be clear, i think most of the added features from Emerald should have been in the remakes (except for the story because it's ass, and the desert underpass because it makes your fossil choice meaningless); i just don't think that the absence of these things is as big a deal as people make it out to be. ORAS did some things wrong, yes, but it also did things right, like introducing mega evolution to the region and fleshing out the motives and motivations of the villains. It also added cool new features like the dexnav and soaring. And of course the story is better than emerald's by virtue of not taking Emerald's story changes into account.

Hard disagree on the story. The mixing of land/sea elements led to a lot of nonsensical plotlines (Team Aqua trying to destroy a volcano, Groudon being in Seafloor Cavern and Team Magma's resulting pursuit of it underwater and setting up a base on the shore of Lilycove).

It also didn't make sense for the opposite version team to be an ally since they BOTH had misguided ambitions to upset the balance of the environment so allying with the other never really felt right. Emerald had it right by having you fight both, it would've been better if ORAS had both be a threat but retained the exclusivity by having one be more successful. And if they need a team-up with the opposite team, make it happen near the end when they've realized their mistake.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

Hard disagree on the story. The mixing of land/sea elements led to a lot of nonsensical plotlines (Team Aqua trying to destroy a volcano, Groudon being in Seafloor Cavern and Team Magma's resulting pursuit of it underwater and setting up a base on the shore of Lilycove).

It also didn't make sense for the opposite version team to be an ally since they BOTH had misguided ambitions to upset the balance of the environment so allying with the other never really felt right. Emerald had it right by having you fight both, it would've been better if ORAS had both be a threat but retained the exclusivity by having one be more successful. And if they need a team-up with the opposite team, make it happen near the end when they've realized their mistake.

Team Aqua weren't trying to blow up the volcano, they were trying to deactivate it so the crater would fill with water. which is bad for some reason.

It makes sense for Groudon to be resting around the area where it last did battle with Kyogre, whuch might well be in the ocean. Speaking of groudon, one of the major problems i have with Emerald's story is how nobody cares that Groudon is on the loose.

I also feel like the extra evil team encounters they added to incorporate both teams into the story hurt the pacing. In the original games, the villain plotstarts picking up pace at Mt. Pyre when the baddies steal the orb, and then ramps up to the climax in the cave of origin. Emerald adds two team magma encounters that entirely undermine this buildup, first by releasing groudon which has absolutely no consequences, and then with their random assault on the space station when both you and team magma should be focusing on finding and defeating team aqua at that point. Seriously, how am i supposed to take the kyogre threat seriously when there is already a super-ancient pokemon on the loose with no consequences?

I'll agree that it would be nice if ORAS had the other evil team be a lesser evil rather than being good, but i still think what we got was better than the clusterfuck that is emerald's story.

All that said, i do have to admit that the scene where rayquaza comes in to stop the fighting titans is super cool.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Team Aqua weren't trying to blow up the volcano, they were trying to deactivate it so the crater would fill with water. which is bad for some reason.

It still doesn't make much sense or expand the sea. You're creating a lake, not a sea there.

It makes sense for Groudon to be resting around the area where it last did battle with Kyogre, whuch might well be in the ocean. Speaking of groudon, one of the major problems i have with Emerald's story is how nobody cares that Groudon is on the loose.

No, it makes more sense for Groudon to rest somewhere that actually has land, not in hostile territory that Kyogre is better adapted to.

I also feel like the extra evil team encounters they added to incorporate both teams into the story hurt the pacing. In the original games, the villain plotstarts picking up pace at Mt. Pyre when the baddies steal the orb, and then ramps up to the climax in the cave of origin. Emerald adds two team magma encounters that entirely undermine this buildup, first by releasing groudon which has absolutely no consequences, and then with their random assault on the space station when both you and team magma should be focusing on finding and defeating team aqua at that point. Seriously, how am i supposed to take the kyogre threat seriously when there is already a super-ancient pokemon on the loose with no consequences?

Kind of, but I'm not bothered by it that much. And it could be fixed very simply just by having Magma Hideout take place after the Space Center. RS and ORAS feel like they need much bigger rewrites than that to make sense (having the opposite evil team play a minor villain for example, would require a rewrite of almost the entire game).

 

[Norzan]

like introducing mega evolution to the region

I found Mega Evolution being shoved in and extremely forced into ORAS's plot because it's clear the whole Kyogre/Groudon plot was clearly written with Emerald's setup in mind. If anything ORAS made a story that was pretty damn stupid to begin with like having a lava dinosaur living underwater and a water team trying to blow up a volcano to make a lake (like that makes a difference, unlike a fire team blowing it up to have magma spill out of it and make more land) even more stupid. Then there's retconning Mega Evolution's origin like a game later. Not to mention the whole alternate universes thing, because that's what Pokemon needs.

It was extremely forced and it didn't need to be jammed into the plot, specially when Primal Reversion has next to nothing to do with Mega Evolution and basically overshadows it in the end. All ORAS had to was introduce more Mega Evolutions and make it like a gameplay only thing, it didn't need to incorporate it into the world for some reason, specially for a remake to a game that has an established setting and plot already. Basically leave it a Kalos only thing.

I have my issues with Sun and Moon but at least there they understood that they didn't need to put Mega Evolution into the plot to justify having it available to the player.

and fleshing out the motives and motivations of the villains.

Not really, they just say more to basically accomplish the same thing Emerald did with far less dialogue.

soaring

Soaring is one of those mechanics that sounds cool in concept until you realize how extremely shallow it is. There's hardly any mechanical value with it, it's literally just a much slower Fly. With Fly you can just go directly to any town, with Soaring you have to wait to fly into the air, fly manually into the location and then land, takes far longer. Soaring's only reason to exist is to justify the Hoopa rings having old legendaries to catch and literally nothing else. Soaring needed far more depth than what it got.

Really the only thing of value ORAS added was the Dexnav and nothing else.

 

[toastghost]

am i the only one who likes how campy and ridiculous emerald's story is

 

[Norzan]

am i the only one who likes how campy and ridiculous emerald's story is

At the very least is far less ridiculous than the story in Ruby and Sapphire, even if in the end is still a very silly plot about two teams trying to achieve two opposite extremes that are terrible for humanity.

Both teams actually being active in the plot instead of one for some reason not doing anything, and Rayquaza telling Kyogre and Groudon to go to bed makes it feel far more cohesive than whatever it's happening in Ruby and Sapphire.

 

[Bolt Strike]

At the very least is far less ridiculous than the story in Ruby and Sapphire, even if in the end is still a very silly plot about two teams trying to achieve two opposite extremes that are terrible for humanity.

Both teams actually being active in the plot instead of one for some reason not doing anything, and Rayquaza telling Kyogre and Groudon to go to bed makes it feel far more cohesive than whatever it's happening in Ruby and Sapphire.

Well yeah, with Magma and Aqua both having misguided extremist motivations there's no version of RSE's story that wouldn't be ridiculous. But I agree, Emerald's is the least nonsensical of them all.

 

[Ransei]

The Pokémon matter in a story

and imo for it to be great they can't just randomly show up in a cutscene for no reasin and drive some type of twist into the story to push the narrative. They have to have incredibly meaningful impact to either the story or the world around them, something significant that ties to them and helps them stand out.

This might be hard to explain so lemme just give examples.

Rayquaza in Emerald showed its significance by flying down towards two raging titans and forcing them away. It showed the world just how much it mattered. I think they should have done more with it in its own game like the Delta Episode did, but this in itself is would make a great example if it weren't its own game.

Necrozma showed its significance by unleashing nature's vengeance on the world for humanity's treason. The entire game was about how it got backstabbed, how it puts entire universes at stake in order to survive, and the people in Alola coming up with plans to handle it.

Kyurem, in its own game, was just a plot device used to push the narrative. The game was not about Kyurem or its lore specifically. They were just like "Oh this Pokémon can fuse and people can use it as a weapon"

Giratina (in Platinum) just randomly showed up and got angry (for reasons that directly contradict its lore btw) to push a narrative.

but in Legends Arceus, Giratina showed its significance by willingly working alongside Volo to create world-threatening chaos you have to out an end to throughout the game, while Giratina itself tries to seek vengeance on Arceus for being banished in the past, as part of its own narrative.

 

[Norzan]

Giratina (in Platinum) just randomly showed up and got angry (for reasons that directly contradict its lore btw) to push a narrative.

Isn't it its entire purpose to keep balance between both worlds (the human world and its world) and Cyrus literally trying to destroy everything puts that into danger? So it doesn't come out of nowhere, it comes out to stop Cyrus. It also came out to save Dialga and Palkia, you know, basically its brothers.

Even if its purpose is not to keep balance, the implication that Cyrus's universal reset destroys literally every dimension and that includes Giratina's. And i'm pretty sure it's not just gonna stay still and not attempt to stop Cyrus.

 

[Ransei]

Isn't it its entire purpose to keep balance between both worlds (the human world and its world) and Cyrus literally trying to destroy everything puts that into danger? So it doesn't come out of nowhere, it comes out to stop Cyrus. It also came out to save Dialga and Palkia, you know, basically its brothers.

Even if its purpose is not to keep balance, the implication that Cyrus's universal reset destroys literally every dimension and that includes Giratina's. And i'm pretty sure it's not just gonna stay still and not attempt to stop Cyrus.

The Giratina movie gave it that purpose, but the games address that time does not flow and space is unstable in the Distortion World, and interviews point out how Distortion World is on a plane separate from reality. It "doesn't exist, yet it's there". Cyrus's doings shouldn't have have affected Distortion World by any means in the games, and if it somehow did, Giratina's own doings in Legends Arceus were causing similar mayhem, causing Giratina's fury to be rather contradictory.

In addition

"Giratina is enraged because the two worlds are endangered. It has merged the Distortion World and our world at the Spear Pillar. That's why both worlds are becoming distorted.

To me this comes across as "Giratina is mad that both dimensions are getting destroyed so it's proceeding to destroy both dimensions anyway"

 

[Ransei]

The Giratina movie gave it that purpose, but the games address that time does not flow and space is unstable in the Distortion World, and interviews point out how Distortion World is on a plane separate from reality. It "doesn't exist, yet it's there". Cyrus's doings shouldn't have have affected Distortion World by any means in the games, and if it somehow did, Giratina's own doings in Legends Arceus were causing similar mayhem, causing Giratina's fury to be rather contradictory.

In addition

"Giratina is enraged because the two worlds are endangered. It has merged the Distortion World and our world at the Spear Pillar. That's why both worlds are becoming distorted.

To me this comes across as "Giratina is mad that both dimensions are getting destroyed so it's proceeding to destroy both dimensions anyway"

There is one thing I forgot about and suddenly remembered, but Pokémon Generations's interpretation of Giratina was very different from what Cynthia stated in the quote above, like Giratina was simply trying to save Palkia and Dialga then save the day by dragging Cyrus into Distortion World. It seems most people believe in this interpretation? It helps that Pokémon Legends Arceus mildly backs it up by Volo claiming Giratina had a change of heart after you defeated it, leading it to enact in a more heroic-like figure. However, at the time in 2009 where the context was more limited, it looked a lot more random imo.

 

[Norzan]

Gamefreak doesn't really care about lore and internal consistency. Like i mentioned above, they retconned Mega Evolution's origin in a remake (that the original had literally nothing to do with it) that came right after the game that said what the original of Mega Evolution was. There's maybe after like ten years of writing lore you start to forget some details, and then there's just flat out not give a crap and change a major thing the game after.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

does anyone play pokemon for the lore?