Mafia Capture the Shiny Victini Mafia! - Endgame (7/19/18)

[Snowy]

I didn't claim thinking who would trust me or not. I claimed because I believe claiming early is the optimal play for Miller as it reduces confusion and misunderstandings later on, avoiding a probable mislynch.

My claim was not for no real reason as it was the first post of the day and I was attempting to generate discussion with it. Also, I was bored but that's a personal reason.

I'm still not going to trust you without proof.

I also remind everyone that scum did claim miller in a previous game.

Why did you write this? Looks like exact mirroring of Elementar's post which you quoted above this.

Probably. It was after midnight. I'm going back to sleep.

 

[Feenie]

Personally, it looks like a mafia member sneakily trying to pull out information.

There was nothing sneaky about it. I asked if you were hiding an ability and as Human advised, that was reckless. If I were trying to be sneaky, as you put it, I would've said something like "the miller claim is a possibility but personally I think Pika_pika is hiding another ability..." not outright claimed that you either had one or didn't.

This looks like setting up a trap. If you wanted me to ignore your question, you wouldn't have asked it in the first place.
Whereas confirming or denying would provide more information to the Mafia which I don't wish to give.

All you had to do was deny or comply to answering what I was saying. You're making this into a bigger deal than it was - you claimed miller right off the bat. You already brought attention onto yourself. You could've just ignored me once I realized that what I'd said was reckless, thus countering more unwanted attention.

 

[Pika_pika42]

There was nothing sneaky about it. I asked if you were hiding an ability and as Human advised, that was reckless. If I were trying to be sneaky, as you put it, I would've said something like "the miller claim is a possibility but personally I think Pika_pika is hiding another ability..." not outright claimed that you either had one or didn't.

Personally I feel if you had written "I think there could be something more apart from the Miller role" or something along those lines, it would have come across as an expression of your curiosity which had nothing to do with me and could be ignored.
But the way you have worded your post, it's like a question pointed towards me which I can't possibly ignore.

All you had to do was deny or comply to answering what I was saying. You're making this into a bigger deal than it was - you claimed miller right off the bat. You already brought attention onto yourself. You could've just ignored me once I realized that what I'd said was reckless, thus countering more unwanted attention.

I never said I didn’t want attention on me nor am I blaming you for bringing attention towards me. In fact, I am happy my claim was able to generate activity and discussion which was my main purpose.

I didn't vote you for putting attention on me. I voted you because I didn't understand your curiosity and the motive behind it and find it suspicious.
Why should I ignore the person who looks suspicious to me and whom I have placed my vote on.

I'm still not going to trust you without proof.

I also remind everyone that scum did claim miller in a previous game.

Ok. Anyway by claiming Miller, all I want is to warn the Cop not to waste a check on me. I don't expect to be everyone's top Town read or for people to trust me just for my claim.

 

[Feenie]

Personally I feel if you had written "I think there could be something more apart from the Miller role" or something along those lines, it would have come across as an expression of your curiosity which had nothing to do with me and could be ignored.
But the way you have worded your post, it's like a question pointed towards me which I can't possibly ignore.

You don't think that would have been the definition of sneaky? I feel that would have been a lot more sneaky rather than me outright asking you - a question that could've been ignored. The only reason I asked you was because, and still is because, I don't see a straight-up plain miller existing in a game like this. It's just not possible in my eyes, and I think most of us would agree. I don't think my saying so is out of line, and I don't think my bringing attention to it is anything wild. The only reason I'm still bringing it up - because I'd wanted to drop the subject as mentioned with Human before - is to clarify this with you. Also to clarify; I do believe the claim.

I didn't vote you for putting attention on me. I voted you because I didn't understand your curiosity and the motive behind it and find it suspicious.
Why should I ignore the person who looks suspicious to me and whom I have placed my vote on.

I'm not saying you shouldn't vote me if you have a liable reason for doing so. I see no reason for a vote to be placed on me, though.

 

[Feenie]

@DarthWolf You only discussed Human's ITP claim briefly, so I was wondering what - if anything (there's not too much really) - else you have to add thus far?

 

[TheCapsFan]

Then why not try voting somebody else?

Nothing anyone else had said had caught my eye yet and I didn't want to place a joke vote down after a serious vote has been placed.

We've just been burned two games in a row by fake survivor claims.

Like I said before, Human is a smart player and he played in one of those two games, he knows the repercussions of claiming survivor. Leave him alone for now and if we have nights with multiple kills, we'll lynch him then.

I also remind everyone that scum did claim miller in a previous game.

It's been done in many previous games. I don't understand your problem with it. D1 miller claims are towny because they decrease the amount of possible lynchees in the long run, which helps to narrow down scum. They're not really a threat until late-game when town-mafia ratio gets closer to 1:1. Also I think that PikaPika's points on Feenie are logical.

I don't think my saying so is out of line, and I don't think my bringing attention to it is anything wild. The only reason I'm still bringing it up - because I'd wanted to drop the subject as mentioned with Human before - is to clarify this with you. Also to clarify; I do believe the claim.

Here's my question: if you believe the claim why bring it up in the first place? Like I said before, our goal is to catch scum. If you believe the claim then you should believe he's town and move on, not call him out for hiding something. All that does is introduce the possibly

Also, Feenie, and AussieEevee too, do you really think that scum would want to draw attention to themselves on the first post of the game? That seems a little Farfetch'd to me.

[VOTE]: AussieEevee

Your actions so far appear to me like you're not trying to catch scum. You've already CWAC'd with the Elementar thing that Pikapika brought up. The rest of your content is just focusing on HD and Pikapika, two people that don't need to be focused on. You say that you won't believe Pikapika without proof, yet the correct way to deal with his claim is innocent until proven guilty by a counterclaim or otherwise. I just don't like what I see so far.

Vote is subject to change as always. Only about half the game has posted thus far and I'm interested to see intro posts and how they stack up.

 

[Feenie]

Here's my question: if you believe the claim why bring it up in the first place? Like I said before, our goal is to catch scum. If you believe the claim then you should believe he's town and move on, not call him out for hiding something. All that does is introduce the possibly

Evidently this is the big misunderstanding with my entire point of questioning. I believe the claim - with the existence of another ability in addition to the miller aspect. That was the entire point of my question. I think it's safe to assume that there's not just a plain miller in this game, just as it would be safe to assume there's no plain vanilla in this game. After all, look at what it says in the game's setup;

This game is a role madness game, meaning most or all players will receive some sort of power role to use.

This is why I chose to question it. If you claim something trustworthy right off the bat - something most will not even think to question - then you'll be able to coast on by and it's a genius play. My asking that did nothing dangerous to Pika_pika because all he had to do was answer 'yes' or 'no'. We all know the game's setup. But - if he had said 'no', then that would qualify as some sort of slip. However it's too late now so honestly discussing it is incredibly pointless.

Also, Feenie, and AussieEevee too, do you really think that scum would want to draw attention to themselves on the first post of the game? That seems a little Farfetch'd to me.

See my answer above. But, as I have already clarified - I believe it with the existence of another ability. I'm choosing to believe it for now, hence my lack of a vote on Pika_pika and vote on jd instead.

Kind of want to see what Eevee comes back with because you bring up very valid points regarding his arguments (or lacking, I guess) so far.

 

[Almonds]

Two claims already?

Vote: PikaPika42

50% chance of Mafia claiming as Miller

 

[Elementar]

You know I don't trust D1 claims, especially claims made for no real reason...

Both had good reasonings actually. Pika's is completely normal, and HD's makes a lot of sense.

I didn't claim thinking who would trust me or not. I claimed because I believe claiming early is the optimal play for Miller as it reduces confusion and misunderstandings later on, avoiding a probable mislynch.

My claim was not for no real reason as it was the first post of the day and I was attempting to generate discussion with it. Also, I was bored but that's a personal reason.

Why did you write this? Looks like exact mirroring of Elementar's post which you quoted above this.

Claiming Miller early is a towny move, claiming your entire role isn't. Why should we provide any extra information to the Mafia?

I really don't understand your post.
First you say claiming Miller early is a Towny move. Agreed.
Then you ask if there's anything more to my role/ability but ask me not to claim such ability. Ending your post by saying that a plain Miller is not likely to be in this role-madness bastard game.

I can see only 2 scenarios.
1) You believe my Miller claim but want to know whether there's anything more to my role.
But why would you be so curious about it?

2) You don't believe my Miller claim or think it's fake but don't explicitly say so.

I don't really understand your motive behind that post and I think you deserve a vote for that.

Vote: Feenie

I really like this post. Each post Pika makes is sounding really good actually. I do like the logic. Good point made on AE CWACing, and their logic sounds terrific. Strong town read atm.

I'm still not going to trust you without proof.

I also remind everyone that scum did claim miller in a previous game.

Probably. It was after midnight. I'm going back to sleep.

1) Who do you trust in a mafia game then? Is there anyone you'd say you trust now? Other than a cop check, what does it take for you to trust someone?
2) Yes, but that player claimed on Day 4 when no other millers claimed. A mafia claiming miller on the first post runs the risk of their actually being a miller. It would be writing their own death sentence if it was fake.
3) It seems like you're just brushing off your CWAC without real conviction or reasoning. It's like your undermining Pika's argument.

Two claims already?

Vote: PikaPika42

50% chance of Mafia claiming as Miller

Not when it's the first post of the game. It's more a 95% town.


I also really like Caps' post. I was thinking the same things about AE. Since jd isn't around now, I'll wait for the questions to be answered and place my vote elsewhere.

UNVOTE: jdthebud
VOTE: AussieEevee

 

[TheCapsFan]

Evidently this is the big misunderstanding with my entire point of questioning. I believe the claim - with the existence of another ability in addition to the miller aspect. That was the entire point of my question. I think it's safe to assume that there's not just a plain miller in this game, just as it would be safe to assume there's no plain vanilla in this game. After all, look at what it says in the game's setup;


This is why I chose to question it. If you claim something trustworthy right off the bat - something most will not even think to question - then you'll be able to coast on by and it's a genius play. My asking that did nothing dangerous to Pika_pika because all he had to do was answer 'yes' or 'no'. We all know the game's setup. But - if he had said 'no', then that would qualify as some sort of slip. However it's too late now so honestly discussing it is incredibly pointless.

I understand that's why you asked it. It's a cautious play and you're thinking about the setup and how they could have affected his actions. I'm just saying that if you bring attention to it while you think he's town you're doing yourself a disservice because you're introducing the idea to the mafia that he might be worth killing because he's hiding a PR. I personally think that if you had stayed quiet it would have been better, but I don't think it's all a big deal.

Two claims already?

Vote: PikaPika42

50% chance of Mafia claiming as Miller

Where are you getting these statistics from? I don't like this post. (for those who are interested assuming there's 3 Mafia it's actually a 21.4% chance that he is Mafia claiming as Miller)

 

[Almonds]

Where are you getting these statistics from? I don't like this post. (for those who are interested assuming there's 3 Mafia it's actually a 21.4% chance that he is Mafia claiming as Miller)

50% Truth
50% Lie

 

[Almonds]

Of course assuming Mafia/TownMiller are the only ones to claim Miller. There's always the exception that someone unrelated would claim Miller... but eh, not likely.

 

[MegaPod]

24 hour (and 21 minutes) Votals

1. @Blacephalon - 0
2. @Cilantro - 0
3. @Feenie - 1 (Pika_pika42)
4. @DarthWolf - 0
5. @jdthebud - 2 (HumanDawn, Feenie)
6. @Jinjo - 0
7. @Elementar - 0
8. @Pika_pika42 - 1 (Kyriaki)
9. @HumanDawn - 1 (AussieEevee)
10. @Thanos - 0
11. @Doctor Floptopus - 0
12. @Kyriaki - 0
13. @AussieEevee - 2 (TheCapsFan, Elementar)
14. @TheCapsFan - 0

 

[Snowy]

Ok. Anyway by claiming Miller, all I want is to warn the Cop not to waste a check on me. I don't expect to be everyone's top Town read or for people to trust me just for my claim.

You could also be doing it to avoid a cop check if you're mafia. There is no way to know, as both come up scum.

It's been done in many previous games. I don't understand your problem with it. D1 miller claims are towny because they decrease the amount of possible lynchees in the long run, which helps to narrow down scum. They're not really a threat until late-game when town-mafia ratio gets closer to 1:1. Also I think that PikaPika's points on Feenie are logical.

And I have objected to Day 1 claims in every single game, as they are not towny at all.

Also, Feenie, and AussieEevee too, do you really think that scum would want to draw attention to themselves on the first post of the game? That seems a little Farfetch'd to me.

On purpose? No. But scum never draws attention to itself on purpose.

[VOTE]: AussieEevee

IDC.

Two claims already?

Vote: PikaPika42

50% chance of Mafia claiming as Miller

I'd say more of a 70% chance.

Both had good reasonings actually. Pika's is completely normal, and HD's makes a lot of sense.

Neither of them had good reasons. Neither of them were under pressure, and their roles - if they are telling the truth - do not contribute to finding scum.

It's Day 1. It should be used to get a feel for people, not making claims. I view all day 1 claims as suspicious.

1) Who do you trust in a mafia game then? Is there anyone you'd say you trust now? Other than a cop check, what does it take for you to trust someone?

I don't. Been burned too many times by trusting people.

2) Yes, but that player claimed on Day 4 when no other millers claimed. A mafia claiming miller on the first post runs the risk of their actually being a miller. It would be writing their own death sentence if it was fake.

Still suspicious. All day 1 claims are.

3) It seems like you're just brushing off your CWAC without real conviction or reasoning. It's like your undermining Pika's argument.

I haven't CWACed yet. I gave my opinion on your comment. If others want to view that as CWAC, that's their problem.

I think HD is still our best bet for a D1 lynch. If PP42 is telling the truth, we'll find out tonight, but anyone else we lynch we have a good chance of lynching town... Regardless of if HD is survivor, serial killer or cultist, town loses nothing but lynching him.

 

[Elementar]

You could also be doing it to avoid a cop check if you're mafia. There is no way to know, as both come up scum.

If there's no way to know, how is it alignment indicative?

And I have objected to Day 1 claims in every single game, as they are not towny at all.

To you, that may be the case. But I'm curious, if you were miller, what would you do?

On purpose? No. But scum never draws attention to itself on purpose.

But Pika certianly meant to post it and draw attention to it. It was a post that wanted attention purposefully. Pika admitted they wanted to get discussion going. Also, if a claim is made to get discussion going, do you see that as a towny claim?

I'd say more of a 70% chance.

So you're saying Pika has a 70% of being mafia? Why aren't you voting them? How many times has a day 1 miller claim ended with the player being mafia? It's very rare...

Neither of them had good reasons. Neither of them were under pressure, and their roles - if they are telling the truth - do not contribute to finding scum.

Both actually contribute to finding scum. Pika has saved an action for the cop so we can scan others who may be mafia. Pika also said they wanted to get discussion going through their claim, and discussion leads to helping find scum. HD has done the same, and it's almost a certainty they're not mafia. That's one less player we need to determine. So they actually were contributing to finding scum.

It's Day 1. It should be used to get a feel for people, not making claims. I view all day 1 claims as suspicious.

Don't claims help us get a feel for people?

I don't. Been burned too many times by trusting people.

You didn't answer the last question. What does it take for you to trust someone?

Still suspicious. All day 1 claims are.

What makes Pika's claim any more suspicious than the several town millers who have claimed Day 1 in the past?

I haven't CWACed yet. I gave my opinion on your comment. If others want to view that as CWAC, that's their problem.

I'm viewing it as CWAC, so it's my problem. And I think you were just repeating what I said, not really providing your opinion.

I think HD is still our best bet for a D1 lynch. If PP42 is telling the truth, we'll find out tonight, but anyone else we lynch we have a good chance of lynching town... Regardless of if HD is survivor, serial killer or cultist, town loses nothing but lynching him.

This makes no sense.
1) You think Pika has a 70% chance of being mafia.
2) How will we found out if Pika is telling the truth tonight? Through the mafia rolecop?
3) And lynching town on day 1 is bad why? Yes, we lose a townie, but town loses more if we lynch HD. Day 1 lynches are meant to give us information. Lynching HD gives us nothing, and we'll be further behind than if we lynched a town member. You're going for HD based on the fact we'll get a mislynch otherwise? If you're so keen on Pika being mafia, why don't you vote for them? That wouldn't be a mislynch would it?
4) HD will be acting as a townie until mafia have a chance to win. So if we do lynch HD, we're losing a current ally.

It sounds to me like you're really trying to avoid being on a mislynch BW...

 

[Snowy]

If there's no way to know, how is it alignment indicative?

The returned cop check wouldn't be, no. PP42 screaming "Hey, I'm town! Look how towny I am!" is.

To you, that may be the case. But I'm curious, if you were miller, what would you do?

I wouldn't claim D1. I answered this in the after game of the last game where Elieson took over for me and claimed Miller. I don't trust day 1 claims, so I wouldn't make them. Except in my really bad screw up as Jester

But Pika certianly meant to post it and draw attention to it. It was a post that wanted attention purposefully. Pika admitted they wanted to get discussion going. Also, if a claim is made to get discussion going, do you see that as a towny claim?

A joke vote could have gotten discussion going, and would have held the same amount of weight as a miller claim.

So you're saying Pika has a 70% of being mafia? Why aren't you voting them? How many times has a day 1 miller claim ended with the player being mafia? It's very rare...

Because we have ways to figuring out if PP42 is telling the truth. Only the mafia have a way of telling if HD is a hostile ITP or a neutral one.

Both actually contribute to finding scum. Pika has saved an action for the cop so we can scan others who may be mafia. Pika also said they wanted to get discussion going through their claim, and discussion leads to helping find scum. HD has done the same, and it's almost a certainty they're not mafia. That's one less player we need to determine. So they actually were contributing to finding scum.

Inb4 HD wins the game as serial killer.

Don't claims help us get a feel for people?

This early on?

Just say I claimed mayor right now, would that give you any information about me? No, absolutely not. It'd be a pointless claim, and you'd have every reason to suspect me for making the claim.

You didn't answer the last question. What does it take for you to trust someone?

That's literally impossible. Been burned too many times by trust.

What makes Pika's claim any more suspicious than the several town millers who have claimed Day 1 in the past?

Go back and look at all those games... the ones I've been in... 90% of them had me react this way to a D1 miller claim. It is virtually guaranteed that I will object to a D1 claim.

I'm viewing it as CWAC, so it's my problem. And I think you were just repeating what I said, not really providing your opinion.

Moving on...

This makes no sense.
1) You think Pika has a 70% chance of being mafia.
2) How will we found out if Pika is telling the truth tonight? Through the mafia rolecop?

There are other town roles that can help us determine that. None of them are as accurate as a cop or rolecop check, true... but there are other roles that can help.

3) And lynching town on day 1 is bad why? Yes, we lose a townie, but town loses more if we lynch HD. Day 1 lynches are meant to give us information. Lynching HD gives us nothing, and we'll be further behind than if we lynched a town member. You're going for HD based on the fact we'll get a mislynch otherwise? If you're so keen on Pika being mafia, why don't you vote for them? That wouldn't be a mislynch would it?

Are you saying losing town can be a good thing?

We lose nothing if we lynch HD, and might even gain some insight.

4) HD will be acting as a townie until mafia have a chance to win. So if we do lynch HD, we're losing a current ally.

How are you so sure that HD is neither a SK nor a cultist?

It sounds to me like you're really trying to avoid being on a mislynch BW...

Of course I'm trying to avoid a mislynch.... I don't want town to lose a townie.

 

[Elementar]

The returned cop check wouldn't be, no. PP42 screaming "Hey, I'm town! Look how towny I am!" is.

When did Pika do that?

I wouldn't claim D1. I answered this in the after game of the last game where Elieson took over for me and claimed Miller. I don't trust day 1 claims, so I wouldn't make them. Except in my really bad screw up as Jester

What would you do though? Only claim after you've been checked? Waste a cop's shot and still look scummy in the process?

A joke vote could have gotten discussion going, and would have held the same amount of weight as a miller claim.

UNVOTE: AussieEevee

VOTE: Archaic

If he did that instead it would've been just as good to get discussion going.

UNVOTE: Archaic

VOTE: AussieEevee

Because we have ways to figuring out if PP42 is telling the truth. Only the mafia have a way of telling if HD is a hostile ITP or a neutral one.

How could we find out if Pika's telling the truth?

This early on?

Just say I claimed mayor right now, would that give you any information about me? No, absolutely not. It'd be a pointless claim, and you'd have every reason to suspect me for making the claim.

If I claimed cop right now (even though it would be a stupid thing to do), that would give everybody information that I am the cop, because I wouldn't have a counterclaim. Then I'm confirmed town. Miller is a similar case, but with a small percentage more of uncertainty.

That's literally impossible. Been burned too many times by trust.

Even if you've cop checked someone and the Godfather is already dead?

Go back and look at all those games... the ones I've been in... 90% of them had me react this way to a D1 miller claim. It is virtually guaranteed that I will object to a D1 claim.

And almost all of them would have ended up town.

Moving on...

You're proving my point by continuing to ignore it.

There are other town roles that can help us determine that. None of them are as accurate as a cop or rolecop check, true... but there are other roles that can help.

How do you know they're in the game?

Are you saying losing town can be a good thing?

Certainly. It's expected on Day 1. It gets us good reads. It helps us determine mafia. It's far better for town than lynching an indep we know little about.

We lose nothing if we lynch HD, and might even gain some insight.

What insight would we get in this particular case if HD is lynched?

How are you so sure that HD is neither a SK nor a cultist?

I'm not. I'm choosing to believe it for now because of their behaviour, but mafia's about instincts and making reads. What akes you so sure they're not a survivor?

Of course I'm trying to avoid a mislynch.... I don't want town to lose a townie.

I meant it as though you're avoiding being associated with a mislynch, as though you don't want to look scummy for lynching a townie. I feel as though you're throwing shade at Pika, but not willing to take the responsibility if they turn up town.

 

[TheCapsFan]

I wouldn't see it as that Farfetch'd if AussieEevee was the Jester.

 

[jdthebud]

Wow lots of activity while I was gone.

As for those votes on me, I guess that may have sounded iffy but I wasn't suggesting the cop actually check HD, just that I didn't think HD would risk a claim like that as mafia. So I fully believe he is an independent. However, I think it's likely there is a serial killer in this game, so I'm not trusting HD just yet.

Vote: AussieEevee

I don't like his constant attacks on pika when Miller is a very common D1 claim.

 

[Snowy]

When did Pika do that?

By claiming miller.

What would you do though? Only claim after you've been checked? Waste a cop's shot and still look scummy in the process?

If I claimed Miller on day 1, I'd expect you to lynch me immediately. There would be no reason not to.

How could we find out if Pika's telling the truth?

You figure it out.

If I claimed cop right now (even though it would be a stupid thing to do), that would give everybody information that I am the cop, because I wouldn't have a counterclaim. Then I'm confirmed town. Miller is a similar case, but with a small percentage more of uncertainty.

You'd be confirmed town because you didn't have a counter claim? *notes it down to try it next time I'm scum*

Even if you've cop checked someone and the Godfather is already dead?

Yes.

And almost all of them would have ended up town.

So?

You're proving my point by continuing to ignore it.

Because there isn't anything to talk about. You say it's CWAC. I say it's not. There is nothing more to talk about.

How do you know they're in the game?

I don't.

Certainly. It's expected on Day 1. It gets us good reads. It helps us determine mafia. It's far better for town than lynching an indep we know little about.

If you say so.

What insight would we get in this particular case if HD is lynched?

If HD turns out to be a cultist, we'll be able to have a close look at those that defended him. Cultists are useful to scum, as they eliminate town but can't hurt mafia.

I'm not. I'm choosing to believe it for now because of their behaviour, but mafia's about instincts and making reads. What akes you so sure they're not a survivor?

I'm not, but it's better odds than any other lynch at the moment.

I meant it as though you're avoiding being associated with a mislynch, as though you don't want to look scummy for lynching a townie. I feel as though you're throwing shade at Pika, but not willing to take the responsibility if they turn up town.

I'm not throwing shade at PP42. All I'm saying is that they made a very suspicious move by claiming D1.

I wouldn't see it as that Farfetch'd if AussieEevee was the Jester.

Spoiler