Mafia Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Mafia - Endgame (Looking Stupid Joker!)

[Reiji]

Mostly in that they didn't really commit to a read on me despite typing up more than a paragraph

I also didn't commit so much on others, I feel you've ignored the paragraph I've written and because I didn't specifically say you're the most Town or Scum player in the game, I'm hedging. It's D1 and right now you've presented enough (so much, maybe even too much) that could swing you both ways, so I'm pointing out what I see and how I feel about it.

Yeah, it is a bit much. Don't know if you've noticed, but overreacting's something I do.

It's not just I don't agree. I think his read on me inconsistent within itself, I think the read on Kai is OMGUS-y, I think there's something off about the calling SM scum based on nothing. Yes, its somewhat subjective, yes, my read on you is much more objective. Yes, I could vote you, or SM, but I'm giving SM more time to get into the game as I've already said, and you're I think the leading wagon anyway so there's not really a reason for me not to press other scumreads less than halfway through the first day.

I have a slight scumlean on SM and again, I explained why. Others have also mentioned the same concerns, so I'm not sure why my basis counts as "nothing" whereas other players get away with it? If you commit to one, commit to all. Otherwise, I'm going on the basis that I'm fine in my SM read (as FA already pointed out) until I get something with actual value behind it as to why I'm not fine in my read.

I also mentioned that my read is going to look OMGUS-y, of course it is like the vote was put in before I could post but again I'd like some more info on this please because I just feel it's being thrown around as "justification" for your vote.

Also while I'm currently entertaining and exploring a HD/Caps team (I have some reason to believe this is plausible) I have reason to believe that there is a potential scum laying low. The reasoning behind this is that at times the thread has been quite volatile with arguments going back and forth for sometimes multiple posts/pages about the same topic but they seem largely confined between two people with others chiming in but not really committing to reads on these particular issues. To me that suggests that there is a very, very good possibility that scum is hanging back and letting us implode and that a lot of these arguments could be T/T.

Following this train of thought, it actually is a point in favor of HD being town.

Agree, agree and agree some more. I'm aware that I am part of said group but it went very quiet apart from Caps/HD/Leetic when that was happening; however I am sure like you said that this is just showing HD is more Town. That or they are living extremely dangerously pitting themselves between leetic and Caps who are not only gunning for each other but also firing back at him in the process.

Bit disappointed that Kai came in and I feel ignored probably the most important thing they needed to address, but oh well.

Would like to not see leetic posting every other post, I actually feel it's a little bit of a hindrance because people are responding so much to what you say rather than other stuff; that said I am liking the aggression is at least becoming a bit more pointed and trying to get results rather than just firing at anything that moves.

Looking at Caps... oof. Unfortuantely the discussion between him and leetic/HD just seems to mostly be playing up to confirmation bias and that makes it a bit harder to read him. As its continued since I last looked I'll need to put Caps in the scumlean pile because I'm unsure why the lack of co-operation is needed tbh.

 

[Reiji]

With that being said, my most likely "targets" that fit that description would probably be SM, Kaiveran, and FinalArcadia. I'm actually feeling a bit better about DawningWind now that I've seen their reads posts mostly because the progression looks good in a way that basically boils down to: "scum often feel pressured to make reads in order to blend in but DawningWind refused to do that for multiple pages and then actually outed their own reads list on their own time and the reads list sounded decent/natural."

Would you be OK to expand a little on Kai and FA at all? Intrigued, especially as FA as I've not seen anything right now that makes me even really want to consider them, and want to see what wavelength we're operating on.

 

[DawningWinds]

Would you care to elaborate? What reads and why? More than happy to go into more details, but I think I explained myself adequately enough. Just like I explained that I am UNSURE (read: not the same as saying you are scum) on your actions. Sure, you started off not great but the way you behaved against the votes/pressure is what is not making me just jump to scum straight away and even now I'm a little unsure. Voting me because of your understanding seems a little weak - is there a way to request vote totals at all? I would be interested to see if DW has just tried to tie me up with someone else that's on more than 1 vote

I the reads in the post, but I can say it again.
Your read on me felt inconsistent to me. Mostly everything you were saying made it sound like I should be listed as scum. You said my later posts didn't vibe with you, and neither did the first one, so really, everything I'd done at that point was stuff that didn't vibe with you, but you still listed me as a townlean.

Your read and vote on Kai felt OMGUSy to me. I explained in my last posted that I've seen enough people go after people for not posting regardless of alignment that while it is kinda an easy thing to do, it's just... not really AI to me. And targetting someone voting you just because you're/were an easy target just feels kinda OMGUSy to me.

Your initial read on SM doesn't land right with me. I think part of it is this wording:

Only 2 posts in the phase and yet I think I have an idea of alignment already

It's just... I'm not sure how to explain ehat I don't like about that wording, but there's definitely something. Maybe the confidence it gives off reading a player who's made zero content posts? And just the the fact that you were calling him scum based on nothing.

 

[FinalArcadia]

Can you directly summarize your thoughts on the gamestate (who you think is town/mafia, etc.)? Doing so would make it easier for me to read you

Blue is town, green is null-ish, orange-to-red is mafia:

DawningWinds - a player I disagree with their vote and some other things, but their overall behavior has not raised any red flags. I've said before that the reaction to leetic v. DawningWinds over reading Soulmaster felt fine to me and I don't think town would have been so uncompromising in not answering. Mafia does not want to give people a reason to look into them more, and it just would've been simpler to give in and bust out a sentence more about SM or something. This one is in the null-to-slight town lean category.

Kaiveran - said that ey will be back with more later, but as of now, Kai is flying under the radar, giving more setup speculation than questions/reads specific to solving players. Keeping the Reiji vote up still I also do not agree with. What prevents this from being more than a slight scum lean is that the reaction to being quoted several times and coming back in here feels natural enough and not panicked. Slight scum lean.

TheCapsFan - I said something to this effect before and my opinion hasn't changed that even when I'm not necessarily in agreement with Caps, I think his posts have been pretty good. His posts show a progression at times that feels natural (the gradual wondering if DW could be a scumbuddy with Human comes to mind), and his defense to leetic has been solid and he's asked good questions to players like DawningWinds regarding their vote. Has engaged directly with a majority of this thread. Town lean.

leetic! - extremely strong activity right out of the gate. That activity is what really set things in motion here, and mafia could easily have done less to keep town from having discussion points. I don't agree with leetic's read on TheCapsFan and I'm honestly not sure I understand if anything was accomplished at all in the back-and-forth with Human, but the latter didn't feel like mafia just hoping to make someone into a target by slipping up. Some have mentioned that this behavior could be scum trying to lead town, but while leetic is aggressive, his posts aren't exactly pressuring anyone into following his reads. Town lean.

Reiji - yeah, I know it is mostly one post that I'm getting this read from, but it was one of the strongest posts of the game. Had insights on players that were not just pure rehashes that other people had already said (i.e. on Kaiveran). Coming in late is hard, and I don't get the sense that Reiji was just pushing out a long post like "oh geez, I'm going to look bad if I don't say anything." Frankly, there were easier votes to take than the one on Kai if Reiji did not want to draw attention to their self, especially when it is a vote that people may (and have) seen as OMGUS. Town lean.

neopest - was actually mostly a nullread until the post I'm seeing as I'm typing this, which raises a good point about the arguments that have taken place and how many may be town/town. At the very least, I agree that none of those disagreements felt "staged" as if to distance partners from each other. Other than that, though, this is probably the slot I'm struggling with reading the most. Null read. Gun to my head, I'd say town, but not with conviction.

HumanDawn - no major red flags here either, though I agree with TheCapsFan in that I don't know what the objective was in asking me about why I didn't mention his pre-D1 post when I had never even mentioned it as a reason for voting him at the beginning of the phase. That said, I don't feel like it was at attempt to prep me for suspicion, so it may have been a legitimate misunderstanding between us. The unvote on TheCapsFan with no other vote to take its place is interesting, but maf!Human is usually as aggressive as his townplay, maybe even moreso honestly. It feels legitimate like he was not just going after Caps but was instead taking in the discussion between the them and came around. Slight town lean,. But the weakest of the town leans.

Soulmaster - has had functionally two total reads, but they are barely even that. One of them being to specifically mention Human yet then say it was alignment non-indicative doesn't make much sense to me, and he said the other players don't stand out, yet never mentioned why Human stood out. Saying that it's hard to read Human is in itself an easy read to make when everyone is a bit leery of him in games. It's safe, and I wonder if he made it because he knew that just discussing leetic wasn't going to cut it. Scum lean.

I feel fairly confident in the Caps/leetic/Reiji group for town leans, and that's the group I wouldn't want to see voted today. Of the null-town reads, in order of confidence, I'd go Human>Dawning>neopest.

 

[DawningWinds]

Others have also mentioned the same concerns, so I'm not sure why my basis counts as "nothing" whereas other players get away with it?

Reading SM based on his first two posts is baseless coming from everyone, the difference is that I have other reads from you that I don't like and that's not really the case for the other people who've read SM pre-return. Your SM read is a smaller issue compared to the other two reads for me, but it's still an issue and since all my issues with you come down to your reads, I really didn't a reason not to mention it with the other two.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

TheCapsFan - I said something to this effect before and my opinion hasn't changed that even when I'm not necessarily in agreement with Caps, I think his posts have been pretty good. His posts show a progression at times that feels natural (the gradual wondering if DW could be a scumbuddy with Human comes to mind), and his defense to leetic has been solid and he's asked good questions to players like DawningWinds regarding their vote. Has engaged directly with a majority of this thread. Town lean.

Interesting that we have opposite reads on this slot. How do you feel about Caps trying to insinuate that I am scum using an argument that would frame DW as town and was completely inaccurate to the gamestate besides? It also is the only part Caps has yet to respond to me on

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

I think that your initial aggressiveness and pushing for reads to get the game started got you a lot of town points and most of the game is still cruising with a townread on you for that. Personally, you've fallen a bit in my eyes since then. I think that your initial pushes for information were good, but your tunneling of DawningWinds has prevented him from providing more content on other players. I agree with Reiji's read on you in that at times the pushes feel a bit too much.

This is still the worst post from Caps so far, not even in how it addresses me but rather to its relation to his progression on DW, and it doesn't really follow from any post before or after

 

[TheCapsFan]

At least stop with deliberately trying to play into confirmation bias, you know that it makes it more difficult for me to read you, and if you get mislynched for that it would be your fault as much as my own

Alright, I’ll give you that one.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Also Caps slowly scumreading DW due to "defensiveness/overreaction" wasn't a very good progression in the first place

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Also Caps slowly scumreading DW due to "defensiveness/overreaction" wasn't a very good progression in the first place

Especially because it completely goes against Cap's reasons for pushing me. Why would scum!DW overreact due to a push from a partner?

 

[TheCapsFan]

Also while I'm currently entertaining and exploring a HD/Caps team (I have some reason to believe this is plausible) I have reason to believe that there is a potential scum laying low. The reasoning behind this is that at times the thread has been quite volatile with arguments going back and forth for sometimes multiple posts/pages about the same topic but they seem largely confined between two people with others chiming in but not really committing to reads on these particular issues. To me that suggests that there is a very, very good possibility that scum is hanging back and letting us implode and that a lot of these arguments could be T/T.

Following this train of thought, it actually is a point in favor of HD being town.

Who amongst the quiet players do you think it might be? You mention FinalArcadia, Soulmaster, and Kai; which one sticks out to you the most?

 

[Reiji]

I the reads in the post, but I can say it again.
Your read on me felt inconsistent to me. Mostly everything you were saying made it sound like I should be listed as scum. You said my later posts didn't vibe with you, and neither did the first one, so really, everything I'd done at that point was stuff that didn't vibe with you, but you still listed me as a townlean.

Your read and vote on Kai felt OMGUSy to me. I explained in my last posted that I've seen enough people go after people for not posting regardless of alignment that while it is kinda an easy thing to do, it's just... not really AI to me. And targetting someone voting you just because you're/were an easy target just feels kinda OMGUSy to me.

Your initial read on SM doesn't land right with me. I think part of it is this wording:

It's just... I'm not sure how to explain ehat I don't like about that wording, but there's definitely something. Maybe the confidence it gives off reading a player who's made zero content posts? And just the the fact that you were calling him scum based on nothing.

These are fair points, although still seem to be missing some of the points I raised in my initial post.

I'm not basing my SM scumlean on nothing, all posts to me have content, even Caps' current trolling facade.

I feel no matter what was said when addressing Kai's vote, I'm going to look OMGUS in some way, right? It's not just the fact they targeted ME because I'm an easy target, I would've still sussed even if they targeted you for the same thing. I think it's a weak reasoning, especially then saying the two 0-posters were potentially a scum team, to vote for someone when at the point in the game they came in I feel there was a lot more they could've looked at. This was something also mentioned by players at the time and still mentioned now, so like the SM business does that make them equally bad?

Am I not allowed to townlean even though the vibe feels off? Again, you keep saying I am implying you're scum. I'm not. This is more a not concrete Town read because of things you have done and I'm not sure what part of that you're not getting.

 

[DawningWinds]

Am I not allowed to townlean even though the vibe feels off? Again, you keep saying I am implying you're scum. I'm not. This is more a not concrete Town read because of things you have done and I'm not sure what part of that you're not getting

The bulk of the read you made on me is pointing out reasons to lean scum on me. The "facade of nonchalance" impression you got, the dislike of my initial post, etc. You cited one single point in my favour. And it just. Doesn't strike me as right that it outweighs everything else you had against me, even by a little bit. I get that it's not concrete, but if almost everything about me that stood out to you stood out as scummish, I just cannot follow how one town point can push the read to be a townlean.

 

[FinalArcadia]

Interesting that we have opposite reads on this slot. How do you feel about Caps trying to insinuate that I am scum using an argument that would frame DW as town and was completely inaccurate to the gamestate besides? It also is the only part Caps has yet to respond to me on

We may be reading his posts differently, because I don't get the insinuation of painting you mafia from his posts. There's a healthy dose of skepticism and not being as sold on you being town as he said he was earlier in the game, but not much more than that unless I'm forgetting something more explicit, if this is about him saying that you prevented DawningWinds from giving more content about other players? I don't think your exchange with Dawning did actually stop him from posting other things, but it may have distracted from it a little while.

Especially because it completely goes against Cap's reasons for pushing me. Why would scum!DW overreact due to a push from a partner?

You can push someone even if it may not fit with potential scumbuddies. I guess I just don't find it weird because I don't actively think about if my question to one person hinges on my read of another so long as I think I've found something worth noting or asking about, if that makes sense.

 

[neopest]

I'm here and reading but I'm quite distracted so my thoughts might not be as expanded on as they could be, but for Kai and FA in particular I've felt like they've lacked a certain kind of conviction behind their reads, but even more notable is the fact that I feel out of all the players in the games they have engaged in the "drama" the least and have had the least amount of commentary on it.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Aside from her first post, FA's posts have not made me townread her so far. Though she doesn't post often, there is a certain kind of effort that seems missing in many of her posts this game. Her gamestate post is meh, the only read that is really against the grain is her one on Caps.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

I think that your initial aggressiveness and pushing for reads to get the game started got you a lot of town points and most of the game is still cruising with a townread on you for that. Personally, you've fallen a bit in my eyes since then. I think that your initial pushes for information were good, but your tunneling of DawningWinds has prevented him from providing more content on other players. I agree with Reiji's read on you in that at times the pushes feel a bit too much.

Quoting this again because I really want Caps to respond to where this post fits in to his progression on DW

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Blue is town, green is null-ish, orange-to-red is mafia:

DawningWinds - a player I disagree with their vote and some other things, but their overall behavior has not raised any red flags. I've said before that the reaction to leetic v. DawningWinds over reading Soulmaster felt fine to me and I don't think town would have been so uncompromising in not answering. Mafia does not want to give people a reason to look into them more, and it just would've been simpler to give in and bust out a sentence more about SM or something. This one is in the null-to-slight town lean category.

Kaiveran - said that ey will be back with more later, but as of now, Kai is flying under the radar, giving more setup speculation than questions/reads specific to solving players. Keeping the Reiji vote up still I also do not agree with. What prevents this from being more than a slight scum lean is that the reaction to being quoted several times and coming back in here feels natural enough and not panicked. Slight scum lean.

TheCapsFan - I said something to this effect before and my opinion hasn't changed that even when I'm not necessarily in agreement with Caps, I think his posts have been pretty good. His posts show a progression at times that feels natural (the gradual wondering if DW could be a scumbuddy with Human comes to mind), and his defense to leetic has been solid and he's asked good questions to players like DawningWinds regarding their vote. Has engaged directly with a majority of this thread. Town lean.

leetic! - extremely strong activity right out of the gate. That activity is what really set things in motion here, and mafia could easily have done less to keep town from having discussion points. I don't agree with leetic's read on TheCapsFan and I'm honestly not sure I understand if anything was accomplished at all in the back-and-forth with Human, but the latter didn't feel like mafia just hoping to make someone into a target by slipping up. Some have mentioned that this behavior could be scum trying to lead town, but while leetic is aggressive, his posts aren't exactly pressuring anyone into following his reads. Town lean.

Reiji - yeah, I know it is mostly one post that I'm getting this read from, but it was one of the strongest posts of the game. Had insights on players that were not just pure rehashes that other people had already said (i.e. on Kaiveran). Coming in late is hard, and I don't get the sense that Reiji was just pushing out a long post like "oh geez, I'm going to look bad if I don't say anything." Frankly, there were easier votes to take than the one on Kai if Reiji did not want to draw attention to their self, especially when it is a vote that people may (and have) seen as OMGUS. Town lean.

neopest - was actually mostly a nullread until the post I'm seeing as I'm typing this, which raises a good point about the arguments that have taken place and how many may be town/town. At the very least, I agree that none of those disagreements felt "staged" as if to distance partners from each other. Other than that, though, this is probably the slot I'm struggling with reading the most. Null read. Gun to my head, I'd say town, but not with conviction.

HumanDawn - no major red flags here either, though I agree with TheCapsFan in that I don't know what the objective was in asking me about why I didn't mention his pre-D1 post when I had never even mentioned it as a reason for voting him at the beginning of the phase. That said, I don't feel like it was at attempt to prep me for suspicion, so it may have been a legitimate misunderstanding between us. The unvote on TheCapsFan with no other vote to take its place is interesting, but maf!Human is usually as aggressive as his townplay, maybe even moreso honestly. It feels legitimate like he was not just going after Caps but was instead taking in the discussion between the them and came around. Slight town lean,. But the weakest of the town leans.

Soulmaster - has had functionally two total reads, but they are barely even that. One of them being to specifically mention Human yet then say it was alignment non-indicative doesn't make much sense to me, and he said the other players don't stand out, yet never mentioned why Human stood out. Saying that it's hard to read Human is in itself an easy read to make when everyone is a bit leery of him in games. It's safe, and I wonder if he made it because he knew that just discussing leetic wasn't going to cut it. Scum lean.

I feel fairly confident in the Caps/leetic/Reiji group for town leans, and that's the group I wouldn't want to see voted today. Of the null-town reads, in order of confidence, I'd go Human>Dawning>neopest.

A lot of this is just active = town, inactive = scum, with the possible exception of Reiji

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

NP is my strongest townread for having thoughts that are similar to mine throughout the game, and DW is second for similar reasons. HD can be a somewhat more distant third.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

I guess RJ/FA/KV/SM/CF are the others in order, though FA and KV as well as SM and CF are both interchangeable with each other at this point