Controversial opinions

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Another topic regarding an original series Pokémon that may have gotten to the "wrong" trainer: Charmander. As noted in this video, in Charmander - The Stray Pokémon, Brock is actually the one who technically should've gotten Charmander, given how he, among other things, was the one who first called Damian out for abandoning his Pokémon and arguably took the most care of Charmander throughout the entire episode. And yet, in the end, he lets Ash have it, because hey, they needed to give every starter Pokémon to the main character, right? It even made sense why Brock was the first one to take a stand for Charmander, given how he himself had also been forced to deal with an abandonment when his parents had left him and his siblings.

However, unlike with Misty and Togepi, Ash ended up actually doing something with Charmander, and by "something", I mean "a lot", so I can easily forgive this. Plus, Brock wasn't that much into training anyway, so it also made sense that he'd let his Trainer friend have this new Pokémon instead of him.

 

[FluffleFi]

However, unlike with Misty and Togepi, Ash ended up actually doing something with Charmander, and by "something", I mean "a lot", so I can easily forgive this. Plus, Brock wasn't that much into training anyway, so it also made sense that he'd let his Trainer friend have this new Pokémon instead of him.

I'll blame the OS series style for this. May's Eevee, Dawn's Cynadaquil and Ash's Scraggy all hatched from eggs, but weren't treated purely like babies. They could act, think and even attack like any of the older Pokemon. Where as Togepi was always treated like a child. It got into trouble, cried and only knew one attack up until it evolved in Hoenn. Even Brock's Happiny and Bonsly, which both acted like babies, did more than just cry.

 

[Daenerys]

I feel like Ash only did "a lot" with Charmander in Kanto when things were going easy for him, but then once SHTF and Charmander evolved and became a disobedient problem child, Ash showed his true colors and got lazy. Ash had an issue on his hands that needed immediate attention, but he didn't do anything to fix it other than give Charmeleon/Charizard orders that he knew wouldn't be followed, and then whine when they went unanswered. It took him like 60 episodes to finally get back in Charizard's good graces, and even then the fact that Charizard's 180 degree turn suddenly redeemed his past insubordination in the eyes of Ash and most fans just never sat well with me. Oh and then of course Ash just dropped him off at the Charicific Valley two dozen episodes later so he could get stronger, instead of Ash acting like a trainer and training Charizard on-screen himself. Gah! So yeah, I've never been too pleased with Ash getting Charmander since I feel like Ash didn't work as hard actually training him as he should have.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Oh and then of course Ash just dropped him off at the Charicific Valley two dozen episodes later so he could get stronger, instead of Ash acting like a trainer and training Charizard on-screen himself. Gah!

The thing is, at this point, Ash was in early Johto, and Charizard, now listening to Ash, pretty much destroyed everything in its path. They needed a way to stop Charizard being Ash's Easy Mode Pokémon pretty much as soon as he was done beating Falkner (it would've made Bugsy look like a joke), without actually having to release it, so they wrote in Charicific Valley to act as a place where Charizard could train while being away, while also making it be able to return for important battles with more power and potentially even new moves. Let's not forget that Day Cares prior to Generation VII worked in a similar way.

 

[Acrobatic Crobat]

Ash had an issue on his hands that needed immediate attention, but he didn't do anything to fix it other than give Charmeleon/Charizard orders that he knew wouldn't be followed, and then whine when they went unanswered.

The thing here is... everyone, both in and out of universe says that Ash should've done something to make Charizard obey him once again, but no one seems to actually ask themself the important question: what exactly can a 10 years old boy do to make a 5'7 tall, superstrong, firebreathing and flying lizard obey him if said lizard DOESN'T WANT to obey him? Most of the time Ash is able to get disobedient Pokemon to listen to him simply by showing that he still cares for them and considers them his friends (as was the case with Pikachu, Chikorita - on three separate ocassions whe she stopped obeying him, no less - or Primeape) - and, when you think about it, it's really the only way other than beating them that statistical trainer can convince most Pokemon (which usually are pretty dangerous and powerful creatures that can easily kill grown up man) to listen to their orders in battle. However it simply doesn't work for Charizard for one reason: after evolving it started to think itself so far above others that it simply no longer cares if Ash loves or hates it - because it considers him far too inferior to care about. And when Charizard finally starts listening once again, it's not because Ash saved its life, but because it finally got its sorry tail kicked badly enough to remember once again where's its place.

 

[TheGoldenToon]

After giving it much thought I like the concept of Ash-Greninja, my only real complaint is that is was just limited to Greninja. Bond Phenomenon is one of the best ideas I think they ever had. Like seriously. Having your Pokemon enter a Mega evolution-like transformation and being able to share your Pokemon's strength and pain is a concept that works so well, especially in anime form.

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

I really, REALLY wish that Rockruff never evolved. I love all forms of Lycanroc, but Rockruff was so cute.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I really, REALLY wish that Rockruff never evolved. I love all forms of Lycanroc, but Rockruff was so cute.

Lycanroc has its cute moments, too.

 

[Daenerys]

The thing here is... everyone, both in and out of universe says that Ash should've done something to make Charizard obey him once again, but no one seems to actually ask themself the important question: what exactly can a 10 years old boy do to make a 5'7 tall, superstrong, firebreathing and flying lizard obey him if said lizard DOESN'T WANT to obey him? Most of the time Ash is able to get disobedient Pokemon to listen to him simply by showing that he still cares for them and considers them his friends (as was the case with Pikachu, Chikorita - on three separate ocassions whe she stopped obeying him, no less - or Primeape) - and, when you think about it, it's really the only way other than beating them that statistical trainer can convince most Pokemon (which usually are pretty dangerous and powerful creatures that can easily kill grown up man) to listen to their orders in battle. However it simply doesn't work for Charizard for one reason: after evolving it started to think itself so far above others that it simply no longer cares if Ash loves or hates it - because it considers him far too inferior to care about. And when Charizard finally starts listening once again, it's not because Ash saved its life, but because it finally got its sorry tail kicked badly enough to remember once again where's its place.

But the main thing that proved to Charizard that Ash still cared for him wasn't simply his loss to Poliwrath, it was mainly the fact that Ash stood awake all night tending to Charizard's injuries and making sure that his tail wouldn't go out so he wouldn't die. This love factor is part of what made Pikachu respect Ash as well, yet my issue is that it took Ash over a year to get to that point with Charizard, whereas Ash did it within one episode with Pikachu.

 

[Acrobatic Crobat]

But the main thing that proved to Charizard that Ash still cared for him wasn't simply his loss to Poliwrath, it was mainly the fact that Ash stood awake all night tending to Charizard's injuries and making sure that his tail wouldn't go out so he wouldn't die. This love factor is part of what made Pikachu respect Ash as well, yet my issue is that it took Ash over a year to get to that point with Charizard, whereas Ash did it within one episode with Pikachu.

I didn't say that the loss to Poliwrath was what caused Charizard to realise that Ash still cares (because, let's face it, that would be nonsense) - only that this is what humbled him down enough to realise it. It's not that Ash didn't show him that he cares for him before (if he didn't, he would simply release him at some point) - but Charizard, I must repeat, was so full of himself that he didn't care at all for what Ash (or anyone, for that matter) thinks about him. Ash couldn't do it in single episode, because it wasn't just about showing Charizard love, but about breaking his pride and arrogance - something he couldn't do by himself.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

What was stopping Ash from actually training with Charizard (that could also get his team to become stronger)?
Full team training sessions and developing new strategies could show Charizard that his trainer realises the issues and is trying to increase his standards.

But what does Ash do instead? Send out Charizard whenever an opponent was out of his league and threw a command, hoping things to change suddenly. It would simply solidify the impression that Ash is too incompetent for Charizard and cares about using it only when things get out of hand.

 

[Acrobatic Crobat]

According to Pokedex, Charizard refuse to use their fire attacks against foes they consider weak. Ash's Charizard takes this trait to extreme, refusing to fight at all if his foe is too weak for his standards. Note however how he reacts to Ash's commands those few times that he decides that his opponent is worthy (most notable during his fight against Blaine's Magmar, but also several other times) - he follows said commands to a T, to the point where Ash actually thinks for a moment that Charizard finally started listening to him.
Ash training extensively to show Charizard that he is a skilled trainer wouldn't help in any way - because Charizard already considers him to be one (otherwise during aforementiomed fights he wouldn't listen to any orders and simply fight however he pleases). He doesn't listen not because he considers Ash weak trainer, but because he considers himself too great to take orders from anyone. He doesn't mind listening to Ash's advice when fighting against common enemy, but being ordered around and sicced on weakling like some attack dog? No way in Distortion World he'd agree for this.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

According to Pokedex, Charizard refuse to use their fire attacks against foes they consider weak. Ash's Charizard takes this trait to extreme, refusing to fight at all if his foe is too weak for his standards. Note however how he reacts to Ash's commands those few times that he decides that his opponent is worthy (most notable during his fight against Blaine's Magmar, but also several other times) - he follows said commands to a T, to the point where Ash actually thinks for a moment that Charizard finally started listening to him.
Ash training extensively to show Charizard that he is a skilled trainer wouldn't help in any way - because Charizard already considers him to be one (otherwise during aforementiomed fights he wouldn't listen to any orders and simply fight however he pleases). He doesn't listen not because he considers Ash weak trainer, but because he considers himself too great to take orders from anyone. He doesn't mind listening to Ash's advice when fighting against common enemy, but being ordered around and sicced on weakling like some attack dog? No way in Distortion World he'd agree for this.

Actually Chairzard's behaviour seems to be really inconsistent on when it actually decides to battle... it attacks Zippo even when it fitted every definition of a weakling Charizard could have used.
Your observation further complicates things... What exactly happens to Charizard during Charizard chills after which it consents to attacking 'weaklings' on Ash's orders?

Imo Charizard and Ash are at fault to an extent, but the attitude I've seen is blaming it all on Charizard or Ash's companions, and justifying any and every fault of Ash's to his inexperience as a trainer, which irks me.

 

[Acrobatic Crobat]

Your observation further complicates things... What exactly happens to Charizard during Charizard chills after which it consents to attacking 'weaklings' on Ash's orders?

As I've already noted in earlier posts - being not only defeated, but almost killed by Poliwrath greatly humbled him down.
I'm not trying to justify all of Ash's flaws - but I'm often met with completely opposite attitude: blaming aboslutely EVERYTHING on his stupidity, even including things that clearly weren't his fault, and playing said flaws up to ridiculous levels - and this in turn irks me.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I'm not trying to justify all of Ash's flaws - but I'm often met with completely opposite attitude: blaming aboslutely EVERYTHING on his stupidity, even including things that clearly weren't his fault, and playing said flaws up to ridiculous levels - and this in turn irks me.

These forums might have different demographics then, I've definitely come across more people on this thread who place more blame on Charizard than Ash.

 

[Jared DiCarlo]

Sorry to break up the debate here, but we should probably get back on topic.

I didn’t think Tracey was all that bad. As an artist myself, I thought he was a pretty interesting character, and one of my all time favorite episodes of the anime is the one where he catches Scyther (Tracey Gets Bugged). But most people never seemed to have warmed up to him because he replaced Brock for a while. While the execution of that was certainly a little sketchy (no pun intended), it was a nice way to spice up the show. If the writers are up to it, I’d like to see him come back in Sun and Moon.

 

[FluffleFi]

He really should have appeared when the School Group traveled to Kanto. He lives in the professor's lab, he had no reason not to show up.

I know a lot of people consider the Black/White series to be a low point, but I really hope that the Pokemon show up again. Krookodile's one of my favorite Pokemon, it'd be a shame to not see him again. Scraggy's just a baby and needs some more training, and poor Unfeazant and Palpitoad definitely need some more time in the lime light. They're probably two of Ash's least developed Pokemon.

 

[Jared DiCarlo]

Krookodile's one of my favorite Pokemon, it'd be a shame to not see him again.

Same here! I love that guy!

 

[TheGoldenToon]

Man, I can't believe Tracey didn't appear for even a few minutes in the first reunion episode of SM. He's the Professor's assistant for crying out loud! I also wish we got to see Brock's Chansey since she evolved before DP ended, so she would have been relevant to the episodes focusing on Pokemon from Kanto. All well, maybe when Brock and Misty return again we'll see her too.

 

[Gligarman]

Sorry to break up the debate here, but we should probably get back on topic.

I didn’t think Tracey was all that bad. As an artist myself, I thought he was a pretty interesting character, and one of my all time favorite episodes of the anime is the one where he catches Scyther (Tracey Gets Bugged). But most people never seemed to have warmed up to him because he replaced Brock for a while. While the execution of that was certainly a little sketchy (no pun intended), it was a nice way to spice up the show. If the writers are up to it, I’d like to see him come back in Sun and Moon.

As a fellow artist I loved the idea of seeing in-anime artists. But he was just so bland as a character and most definitely did no justify removing Brock.