Controversial opinions

[Handy Man]

I know you said you wouldn't reply to me, but since you're basically calling me out for making a sexist comment, I feel I should have the right to respond.

Reading your comments on Amour, the actual romance behind it - that is, the tension between two people attracted to one another and how they act on it - is irrelevant to Serena's overall character growth. Ash inspired her to try live her best life, but that isn't something that's inherently romantic. Ash inspired Clement in a similar way, but you didn't see Clement crushing on Ash, did you? No, it was only the female character who manifested romantic feelings, and that's completely deliberate on the director's part.

When you see his other prominent Pokemon work (Power of Us) and read his comments on how he likes to portray Ash as a character, it's completely believable he'd include these shipping elements to reinforce that image. It's even more believable given how common this is in fiction in general. It's popular convention because people like it and I don't think there's anything wrong or even sexist about admitting that. Swap the genders round and the logic remains the same.

And to be clear, I have zero issues with Ash and Serena as a prominent relationship in the show. I just find the shipping part of it arbitrary.

Fair enough, I apologize for that. With that said, you seemed to miss the point of my post. Serena didn’t need to have a crush on Ash to be inspired by him, but they chose to handle it like that anyway. I already wrote in great detail on why that’s important to me. A girl in real life had a crush on me for a similar reason, and also looked up to me. I just feel like looking at Serena falling in love with Ash to make him look like a cool protagonist who gets girls is what feels sexist to me, because it makes the crush seem shoehorned when there is truly depth to it.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Honestly, as someone who loves Serena as a character, I think people can acknowledge that Amourshipping is one part of her character. It is annoying when people ignore everything else about her, however, because as Serena grows throughout the series, her crush on Ash just becomes another part of her; it feels realistic that a young girl would be crushing on a guy she likes in the midst of everything else in her life.

Serena is extremely well developed for a character and she is more than just a ship. I personally believe that the reason she left to see Ash at the beginning of the series was a convenient excuse that came with a win-win for her. Crush from childhood in Kalos? "Hey, what a convenient reason for me to leave my house and also thank the person who inspired me." I feel like there are other things that hint toward this at the beginning of the series too. I actually made a longer post about it in the Character Analysis thread.

At this point, the only real issue I see with Amourshipping is how both sides propose an objective nature to their argument. People who support Amour often point out how Ash definitely returned Serena's feelings and how Serena is the one true girl for Ash because of their development. People who don't support the ship often point out how the anime will never have a romance or that Ash is one hundred percent oblivious to Serena's feelings. Neither are objectively confirmed, so I don't think it's fair each side gripes over the other about this. If you want to believe Serena and Ash will get married? Sure, what's the harm? As long as you don't enforce your beliefs on others. You want to believe Ash will never get in a romantic relationship? Sure, what's the harm? As long as you don't enforce that belief on others.

I actually think a debate on HOW ships impact certain characters could be really cool if people were more open to discussing it. Though, truthfully, I feel like this is more of a sexism discussion rather than a writing or narrative based one, for numerous reasons.

 

[Jaye]

I actually think a debate on HOW ships impact certain characters could be really cool if people were more open to discussing it. Though, truthfully, I feel like this is more of a sexism discussion rather than a writing or narrative based one, for numerous reasons.

Depends on what you mean by impact.

Discussing the impact in a narrative sense becomes very difficult when the show itself is ambiguous about a lot of it. Discussing it from a meta perspective is more doable, but in this case we're second guessing the intentions of the director and writers. Either way, it's interpretation vs interpretation, which doesn't leave much room for middle ground, especially when biases are involved.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I once read a comment on YouTube (I think, can't remember) regarding Serena in some way, probably wanting her to come back. I responded to that comment that AmourShipping isn't all there is to Serena's character. The response to my response was something along the lines of "Yes, but it's a big part of her character". Like many others have said, many XY fans on the internet seem to see Serena as nothing more than an object instead of a multilayered character.

While I do not hate XY, I do not really like how people use it to bash SM. Sun and Moon was a different kind of series, but not a bad one. It had Ash forming a family, winning a Pokémon League, and much more. Just a day or two ago, I briefly argued with a YouTube user regarding whether SM being bad was an opinion or a fact.

 

[flowerfun]

I once read a comment on YouTube (I think, can't remember) regarding Serena in some way, probably wanting her to come back. I responded to that comment that AmourShipping isn't all there is to Serena's character. The response to my response was something along the lines of "Yes, but it's a big part of her character".

I've actually seen a commenter on another video regarding XY saying that Serena has zero depth and her crush on Ash is her only character trait, which is obviously not at all true in the slightest.

 

[FluffleFi]

With Goh having a few episodes to himself without Ash around, i'm honestly hoping the next companion(s) get the same treatment. Seeing things from another character perspective could be pretty refreshing.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Satoshi/Ash has been given all the positive development he can possibly have. He should get a negative character arc where he rediscovers the sadistic joy he gets from calling girls ugly just because he's annoyed with them.

 

[Alola]

Satoshi/Ash has been given all the positive development he can possibly have. He should get a negative character arc where he rediscovers the sadistic joy he gets from calling girls ugly just because he's annoyed with them.

I don’t know if I agree with this opinion, but I do agree with the sentiment of missing a sarcastic, witty, and savage Ash from the original series. Nowadays he’s relentlessly polite and nice and it’s too saccharine for me. I lived for some of the exchanges he had with Misty as a kid, especially the dubbed versions.

 

[Daren]

I don’t know if I agree with this opinion, but I do agree with the sentiment of missing a sarcastic, witty, and savage Ash from the original series. Nowadays he’s relentlessly polite and nice and it’s too saccharine for me. I lived for some of the exchanges he had with Misty as a kid, especially the dubbed versions.

"Don't worry, Brock. You'll find plenty of other girls to reject you."
OS Ash was incredible.

 

[Emmy]

One of my favourites was an underrated one when Ash won the trip to the Orange Islands just after Misty chastised him for trying his luck in a lottery and it hard cuts to Ash winning who says "welp, I guess you can't lose them all". In obvious reference to his fresh loss against Ritchie.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I don’t know if I agree with this opinion, but I do agree with the sentiment of missing a sarcastic, witty, and savage Ash from the original series. Nowadays he’s relentlessly polite and nice and it’s too saccharine for me. I lived for some of the exchanges he had with Misty as a kid, especially the dubbed versions.

Savage OS Ash was fun, but I think it's good he's matured as a person and moved past those kinds of remarks.

 

[Greninjaman]

"Don't worry, Brock. You'll find plenty of other girls to reject you."
OS Ash was incredible.

Brock: Gets rejected by literally EVERY girl he meets during his time as a main character of the show, mostly due to either him getting jabbed in the back by Croagunk or getting his ear pulled

How many times has he gotten rejected at this point, anyway?

 

[Rockapheller]

I love how Ash would occasionally come across the situations where he and his friends would imitate Team Rocket and the trio’s motto. A bunch of times in OS. But I think he never did in AG and did only once in DP. I need more of that.

 

[Handy Man]

I love how Ash would occasionally come across the situations where he and his friends would imitate Team Rocket and the trio’s motto. A bunch of times in OS. But I think he never did in AG and did only once in DP. I need more of that.

It happens one more time with Serena and Bonnie in XY010, as well as in a dream sequence with the Cerise lab folks in JN074.

 

[Alola]

Savage OS Ash was fun, but I think it's good he's matured as a person and moved past those kinds of remarks.

The thing is is that being mature and being snarky are not mutually exclusive. There is a plethora of snarky characters all across various media that are mature, wise, intelligent, reasonable, compassionate, helpful, etc. Ash could still be an incredibly kind and supportive person or role model while also making the occasional critical comment or jab here and then. I personally find such occasional back-and-forth between friends more amusing than everyone uplifting each other 100% of the time. Realistically, those you spend a lot of time with will get on your nerves at some point and you may poke fun at them every now and then as a result, but not truly mean it; I think that shined best with Ash & Misty as well as Ash & Dawn.

Also, I think it's arguable to say Ash has matured as a person when the current saga is where we had him looking for digital data as he would a lost dog. And that's not even considering his depictions and several of his antics in BW or SM. I feel like his maturity fluctuates according to the writer or saga. Sometimes, they'll have him act unbelievably goofy and other times in a stoic fashion. Overall, yes, I would agree with you and say he's not as brash or smug as he was in the initial sagas, but I don't think he's so mature as to be above being snarky for comedic effect.

 

[R1ke]

Yeah I miss savage Ash as well, more entertaining to watch. You can definitely be kind but roast your friends from time to time. But I don’t think Goh would be able to handle it lol

 

[Jaye]

One way to show friendship is through good natured teasing and the occasional scathing remark. I think the show has - I wanna say since the end of BW? - deliberately moved away from those sorts of interactions among its cast and has opted for highly supportive relationships where characters seldom have a bad thing to say about one another.

I often say Ash is mostly the same in each saga, but that witty, even occasionally petty, side of him has definitely been phased out as time has gone on and I don't think it's tied to his maturation as a person. We're at a point where he doesn't even have anything scathing for Team Rocket anymore, which is kinda sad. When you see Trip putting down Ash's hometown and Iris prodding him at every opportunity, but Ash never rising to the bait and having something to say back, you know something has fundamentally changed.

I don't need snark all the time, but I do miss the variety. You have characters like Bonnie, Sophocles, and even Mallow sometimes who'll come out with the odd bit of snark in response to someone's antics, but Ash is so relentlessly upbeat about everything these days.

 

[Weddingbells]

One way to show friendship is through good natured teasing and the occasional scathing remark. I think the show has - I wanna say since the end of BW? - deliberately moved away from those sorts of interactions among its cast and has opted for highly supportive relationships where characters seldom have a bad thing to say about one another.

I often say Ash is mostly the same in each saga, but that witty, even occasionally petty, side of him has definitely been phased out as time has gone on and I don't think it's tied to his maturation as a person. We're at a point where he doesn't even have anything scathing for Team Rocket anymore, which is kinda sad. When you see Trip putting down Ash's hometown and Iris prodding him at every opportunity, but Ash never rising to the bait and having something to say back, you know something has fundamentally changed.

I don't need snark all the time, but I do miss the variety. You have characters like Bonnie, Sophocles, and even Mallow sometimes who'll come out with the odd bit of snark in response to someone's antics, but Ash is so relentlessly upbeat about everything these days.

Oh my gosh yet. The overtly positive saccharine Ash we have now is so boring. Idc that he matured, he is boring to me. The character interaction in SM could of been so much more instead of basically a constant upbeat group

Let them argue, snark , be witty, this idea that Ash matured so he can't basically have any negative traits other than "being frustrated he lost" which feels like a constant arc for him, even in JN. I miss that sorta mean side he had towards GOH I. Episode one, but that was gone

I miss when someone insulted Ash and he would slap right back.even with TR. Now anytime he meets a arrogant rival it's always with "what did you say?! How cod u say something like that?!". Honestly I wish that nanu fight was with AG or OS Ash. Ash would of threw it right back at nanu instead of looking like he was about to cry

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

The thing is is that being mature and being snarky are not mutually exclusive. There is a plethora of snarky characters all across various media that are mature, wise, intelligent, reasonable, compassionate, helpful, etc. Ash could still be an incredibly kind and supportive person or role model while also making the occasional critical comment or jab here and then. I personally find such occasional back-and-forth between friends more amusing than everyone uplifting each other 100% of the time. Realistically, those you spend a lot of time with will get on your nerves at some point and you may poke fun at them every now and then as a result, but not truly mean it; I think that shined best with Ash & Misty as well as Ash & Dawn.

Also, I think it's arguable to say Ash has matured as a person when the current saga is where we had him looking for digital data as he would a lost dog. And that's not even considering his depictions and several of his antics in BW or SM. I feel like his maturity fluctuates according to the writer or saga. Sometimes, they'll have him act unbelievably goofy and other times in a stoic fashion. Overall, yes, I would agree with you and say he's not as brash or smug as he was in the initial sagas, but I don't think he's so mature as to be above being snarky for comedic effect.

Ash can be both childish and a bit mature without being snarky.

 

[Weddingbells]

Also, while yes I agree that amour is definite
y one sided and Serena is more than a ship

But imo, who cares? I genuinely don't see the issue if someone only like Serena for the ship. Many people do that. Where there only interest in a show is just cause they like the ship. Engage in media how YOU would like. Do you just enjoy Serena and Ash solely for the ship , then go right ahead. Heck ik there are Charactefs I enjoy mainly for how much I enjoy their relationship with other characters (platonic or romantic). I don't like bashing someone if they only like a character for a ship. Who cares? Some people like characters solely because of their design and that's it. So when it comes to relationship, suddenly that's wrong and your "reducing them down to their ship" automatically

but I also acknowledge the other side of the coin. While I admit I like certain characters for minor reason (designs, relationship, ) it's also false to blatantly lie that's all their character has to offer. For example, yeah engage with XY all I want because of the ship, but don't bring others down and lie and bring others down if they enjoy Serena outside of the ship

Like I like certain characters because of a ship, but I would never claim that's all they have to offer