Controversial opinions

[PrettySylveon]

That all aside, looking back I would say it worked out for Azumarill. It seemed to be given to a Trainer that would appreciate it for who it is and be spared Paul's grueling training regimen.

Exactly. It's no wonder I didn't think it was a big deal when Paul gave it away.

 

[Dr. Gro 3001]

Honestly, I just brought up the idea that he might have had the Azumarill for more than just catching it for the Oreburgh Gym Battle. I do think that he only had it for a short period of time.

 

[Greninjaman]

Honestly, I just brought up the idea that he might have had the Azumarill for more than just catching it for the Oreburgh Gym Battle. I do think that he only had it for a short period of time.

Well, there are players who would train up a Pokemon just for one battle and then never use it again.

 

[FelipePR]

I was grown tired of Brock's crush gag way too earlier than his departure. Not that I dislike him or anything, but I was genuinely glad when he was written off from the main cast. It was quite difficult for me to bear with his overly-expressive crush gag especially during the D&P run.

To be honest, when I was little, I kind of liked Brock's crush gag. I know that Brock is way over expositive, but somehow, in my inability to express and convey what I felt, I identified with the dilemma of the character's and his consecutive failures in the same field. However, this gag lasted for so long and became so repetitive and recurring that, I believe that around DP or even Pokémon Advanced, I also got bored with it.

When in Pokémon: To Be a Pokémon Master the character was reintroduced, I confess that, the first time the gag was shown, I, caught up in the nostalgic proposal of these final episodes, appreciated it. But then, the same Gag was exhaustively repeated in the following episodes so that every time we were introduced to a female character I immediately thought: "Oh my Gosh, here comes that annoying Gag once again".

Ultimately, in my opinion, this gag ended up being quite detrimental to the character to the point of inhibiting his development. Because, instead of the producers allowing Brock to be an interesting and complex persona, as he initially was, they summarized him in attitudes that, ultimately, ended up being both idiotic and toxic.

 

[Dr. Gro 3001]

@FelipePR Tbh, the only really amusing thing about the Brock crush gag that we got out of To Be A Pokémon Master was seeing Croagunk and Misty to team up to drag Brock away. And even that quickly got as old as Brock's crush gag.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

To be honest, when I was little, I kind of liked Brock's crush gag. I know that Brock is way over expositive, but somehow, in my inability to express and convey what I felt, I identified with the dilemma of the character's and his consecutive failures in the same field. However, this gag lasted for so long and became so repetitive and recurring that, I believe that around DP or even Pokémon Advanced, I also got bored with it.

When in Pokémon: To Be a Pokémon Master the character was reintroduced, I confess that, the first time the gag was shown, I, caught up in the nostalgic proposal of these final episodes, appreciated it. But then, the same Gag was exhaustively repeated in the following episodes so that every time we were introduced to a female character I immediately thought: "Oh my Gosh, here comes that annoying Gag once again".

Ultimately, in my opinion, this gag ended up being quite detrimental to the character to the point of inhibiting his development. Because, instead of the producers allowing Brock to be an interesting and complex persona, as he initially was, they summarized him in attitudes that, ultimately, ended up being both idiotic and toxic.

I'm still mad they never let Brock find happiness with anyone. I mean c'mon, girls like Pike Queen Lucy and that one girl from Johto Wilhomena liked him, too! And the worst part too was, for the latter girl, Brock even acknowledged the writer's cruelty with the gag. When he was telling her he'd like to see her again after she told him the same, he says, sadly, "I'll never see her again." Could have just been the writers playing on the fact that Wilhomena was just one of many characters of the day in Johto, but still..I always thought it was cruel, because she was one of only a select group of very few girls who reciprocated Brock's romantic feelings, and they just dump her off like that.

I feel even angrier about the relationship between Brock and Pike Queen Lucy.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I found this, too.

 

[Eitarou]

Maybe we can pair Brock with a girl who’s not a legal adult?

 

[ekatheparas]

English pokemon anime music is good. Like REALLY, REALLY good. Up to the point where I listen to it on a daily basis and can sing most of them exactly as it was sang (maybe in a different key, I'm not good at the "female key"). My family is mildly irritated by this, but at least my boyfriend enjoys it as well

 

[mastermind lissi]

Yes! The anime theme songs and movie end credit songs and everything like that are actually pretty good! I annoy the heck out of everyone sometimes by singing the hoenn or bw theme songs under my breath (what can I say, they’re really catchy and easy to sing quietly buts till loud enough for people to hear)

The movie songs are pretty good too from the ones I’ve heard (I’ve watched the newer movies from Pokémon tv, so I can say those are pretty good)

 

[sc190191]

English pokemon anime music is good. Like REALLY, REALLY good. Up to the point where I listen to it on a daily basis and can sing most of them exactly as it was sang (maybe in a different key, I'm not good at the "female key"). My family is mildly irritated by this, but at least my boyfriend enjoys it as well

Is this Ed Goldfarb's burner account? Just Kidding, I like some dub music too

 

[BeautifulSylveon]

I really don’t like the "Tell don’t show" approach with Liko. Not only other in-universe people don’t know what she thinks, I myself don’t want to know what she thinks. How she feels could have been transcribed with her body language.

What could have also worked is showing her in a "mind-situation", where she’s somehow a different person in a different setting and having to deal with what happens to her (for example, she’s a cowgirl in the far west or something like that, and what happens to her in real life influences her "cowgirl" life, like a bandit showing up with Amethio’s appearance). It could have been more entertaining.

 

[Kurolegacy]

While I’ve seen people giving this praise all over, one thing I’m really not a fan of is the adult aspect of the cast. Whether it be Liko and Roy having to be chaperoned pretty much everywhere, having to be given basic tools for a trainer like pokeballs when catching a Pokémon because the thought of doing so isn’t on their minds, or having to be given permission to do things, it makes this journey feel too sterile and safe. Pokémon is at heart the ultimate kids power fantasy of a kid having the ultimate freedom of adventure, living completely independently and not needing adult supervision or approval to what they do on their journey and Horizons runs completely counter to that as if it’s an entire adventure with the training wheels on. It also causes for there to feel like there’s no actual stakes to anything because they can always fall back on the adults to bail them out despite failure being the way that many a character grows. The whole thing just ends up being stifling for their growth.

 

[Daren]

Pokémon is at heart the ultimate kids power fantasy of a kid having the ultimate freedom of adventure, living completely independently and not needing adult supervision or approval to what they do on their journey and Horizons runs completely counter to that as if it’s an entire adventure with the training wheels on.

Honestly this is unerringly similar to my complaints about the modern games, too. (Though to e fair, I think most of the Ash era messed up the "kids power fantasy" element of the games very badly as well).

It seems like they're making the show very, very different from the Ash era for whatever of many possible reasons, and as usually happens this leads to some elements the classic got right being left behind.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Honestly this is unerringly similar to my complaints about the modern games, too. (Though to e fair, I think most of the Ash era messed up the "kids power fantasy" element of the games very badly as well).

It seems like they're making the show very, very different from the Ash era for whatever of many possible reasons, and as usually happens this leads to some elements the classic got right being left behind.

Gotta disagree that the Ash era messed it up. While Ash may not have gotten to be the champion until SM, as a 10 year old he alongside others in his age range traveled around the world completely independently with him even confronting and thwarting numerous evil organizations from Hoenn onwards and even garnering the respect and admiration of people pretty high up in the world. Add to that that, even at his worst, Ash managed to place within the top 16 of regional competitions that hundreds of trainers competed in with even more not even managing to get the 8 badges required to compete in the first place and that’s pretty impressive for a 10 year old.

 

[Daren]

Gotta disagree that the Ash era messed it up. While Ash may not have gotten to be the champion until SM, as a 10 year old he alongside others in his age range traveled around the world completely independently with him even confronting and thwarting numerous evil organizations from Hoenn onwards and even garnering the respect and admiration of people pretty high up in the world. Add to that that, even at his worst, Ash managed to place within the top 16 of regional competitions that hundreds of trainers competed in with even more not even managing to get the 8 badges required to compete in the first place and that’s pretty impressive for a 10 year old.

We might be going off different ideas of what a "kids power fantasy" means.
From my perspective Ash gets bailed out by older kids/adultsall the time, can't defeat the major criminal characters in battle, is regularly humiliated or defeated to make other characters look better, was never allowed to defeat high-end Legendaries, and most of his series' end with failing to accomplish his main goal and any victory he does get being immediately followed up by a loss.

Ash has long had something of a reputation as a failure which may not be fair from an in universe perspective, but it gaining so much traction says a lot about how he compares to the games the show was based off of and the generaly way a lot of people see the narrative around him.

 

[Kurolegacy]

We might be going off different ideas of what a "kids power fantasy" means.
From my perspective Ash gets bailed out by older kids/adultsall the time, can't defeat the major criminal characters in battle, is regularly humiliated or defeated to make other characters look better, was never allowed to defeat high-end Legendaries, and most of his series' end with failing to accomplish his main goal and any victory he does get being immediately followed up by a loss.

Ash has long had something of a reputation as a failure which may not be fair from an in universe perspective, but it gaining so much traction says a lot about how he compares to the games the show was based off of and the generaly way a lot of people see the narrative around him.

Care to give examples of how he gets bailed out all the time by others because that seems vastly over exaggerate. Also where is he “humiliated“ to make others look better? If you’re talking about his rivals, the entire point is having him face an opponent that’s a step ahead to build up to him winning where it mattered at the league. Also, why is it important that he beats a major legendary when literally no one has. Meanwhile he’s beaten multiple legendary Pokémon and even conquered numerous elite trainers over the span of the series. Why does him not battling the organization leaders matter when he, a 10 year old has foiled their plans numerous times? And so what if he hadn’t accomplished winning a league until SM? These are major competitions that hosts hundreds of trainers and he’s never placed outside of the top 16 even when he was a rookie that didn’t adhere to the importance of training.

It seems that your idea is that Ash is somehow not a kid’s power fantasy simply because he isn’t us playing the game which is honestly a ridiculous notion. What 10 year old do you know that could even hope to accomplish half of what Ash has over the course of his journe?

 

[Daren]

Care to give examples of how he gets bailed out all the time by others because that seems vastly over exaggerate. Also where is he “humiliated“ to make others look better? If you’re talking about his rivals, the entire point is having him face an opponent that’s a step ahead to build up to him winning where it mattered at the league. Also, why is it important that he beats a major legendary when literally no one has. Meanwhile he’s beaten multiple legendary Pokémon and even conquered numerous elite trainers over the span of the series. Why does him not battling the organization leaders matter when he, a 10 year old has foiled their plans numerous times? And so what if he hadn’t accomplished winning a league until SM? These are major competitions that hosts hundreds of trainers and he’s never placed outside of the top 16 even when he was a rookie that didn’t adhere to the importance of training.

As I said, I think we're going by different definitions of a power fantasy; I think a power fantasy character isn't just competent, they're absolutely exceptional and amazing, someone for the audience to live vicariously through and forget their real world struggled for a bit, to have the kinds of constant successes and respect you can't enjoy in real life. Any losses are just there to make their later victory better. Such a person doesn't need characters of the day to save them from criminals (Sugar the Raichu stopping the TRio, or the poachers in Trial on a Golden Scale), they save themselves. They don't have a villain they never defeat stopped by someone else (Hunter J).
Most especially a rival like Alain would never be in a "proper" power fantasy; putting in effort to master your new super form then it still fails to someone you've already lost to every time? That's absolutely deflating. The Kalos league outrage is exactly the sort of thing that doesn't happen in a power fantasy because that sort of loss brings you back down to earth. You don't watch or read or whatever a power fantasy to be reminded of the time you studied for that test all week and only got a C-.
Similarly, the fact no one has defeated a Major Legendary is exactly why a power fantasy protagonist would; to show how good. The same reason the previously undefeated villain finally loses to the hero (note that the aime even took away that by revealig Leon wasn't actually undefeated).
See Red in Origins; that is what I call a power fantasy.

It seems that your idea is that Ash is somehow not a kid’s power fantasy simply because he isn’t us playing the game which is honestly a ridiculous notion. What 10 year old do you know that could even hope to accomplish half of what Ash has over the course of his journe?

I brought up the games because they are power fantasies and the gulf in what the player does in the story and what Ash is allowed to do in each region is telling.

The big thing is that Ash has a reputation as something of a failure, as I said. A power fantasy character might be dismissed for various reasons, but "failure" would never come up outside of intentionally out-of-context jokes or similar.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I brought up the games because they are power fantasies and the gulf in what the player does in the story and what Ash is allowed to do in each region is telling.

The big thing is that Ash has a reputation as something of a failure, as I said. A power fantasy character might be dismissed for various reasons, but "failure" would never come up outside of intentionally out-of-context jokes or similar.

I think that there are some major differences between what a video game and a weekly anime series is allowed to do story wise and with their protagonist too. They are two different mediums, so I think that is an important detail to keep in mind.

I know that people complained about Ash losing Leagues for years, but I think the idea that he had a reputation of a failure prior to SM feels like such an exaggeration, if not just inaccurate. Just because he lost doesn't mean that he failed, especially when he still did well in most of the Leagues in each series. Maybe that's more along the lines of how casual fans or people who hated Ash felt about him, but not getting first place with a shiny trophy or a big ceremony doesn't make him a failure.

 

[Eitarou]

The thing about tournaments, you usually tend to have more victories than losses.

 

[Daren]

Sorry to respond so late but I've been having allergy issues all day.

I think that there are some major differences between what a video game and a weekly anime series is allowed to do story wise and with their protagonist too. They are two different mediums, so I think that is an important detail to keep in mind.

Although this is certainly true, I don't think being a weekly series prevented things like capturing/defeating "box legendaries". There may be some other mandates we're unaware of when dealing with such a big franchise, but the reasons ultimately don't adjust the outcome; as said I just can't see Ash as being a power fantasy character or being intended as one when a lot of the elements that make the protagonists of the games one were specifically kept away from Ash until Sun/Moon (and permanently in some cases); he not only didn't get the big climactic victory of becoming Champion the games all have, but the league being divided into a tournament and then the Elite Four means he didn't even qualify to attempt to get the game's climax.

I know that people complained about Ash losing Leagues for years, but I think the idea that he had a reputation of a failure prior to SM feels like such an exaggeration, if not just inaccurate. Just because he lost doesn't mean that he failed, especially when he still did well in most of the Leagues in each series. Maybe that's more along the lines of how casual fans or people who hated Ash felt about him, but not getting first place with a shiny trophy or a big ceremony doesn't make him a failure.

I was talking about what I'd call the casual audience (I apologize for not being more specific; haven't been feeling well lately and I fear my posts are losing clarity as a result); the people who remember watching the show during the OS era and maybe occasionally looked up what was happening later on--they may or may not still play the games. From the posts and such I've seen over the years it seems like Ash failing to win the leagues is considered one of the most noteworthy things about him online outside the anime's own community, and it's not uncommon for him to be strawmanned as a failure as a result; I'm sure we've all seen the memes comparing him to Red.

It's not really fair but the fact is he did spend a very long time failing to accomplish his main goal in each multi-year series, and while his performance is supposedly pretty good for a real athlete even in his less successful series', it's a lot less common for fictional protagonists who aren't either some sort of villain or in a situation where success ends the show (and from what I've seen a lot of other characters like that often have shaky reputations as well).