Controversial opinions

[Kurolegacy]

I've been rewatching AG again and man May was such a vast improvement over Misty in Johto or Brock for that matter. May felt like an actual character, had a funny and memorable personality, actually battled and wasn't stereotyped to be overly girly just because she was a coordinator. I think the impact is lost if you didn't watch AG when it aired because now we have so many female companions, but at the time having a fresh new female lead with a new and unique goal at the time was great.

I can see why the writers decided to permanently write Misty off the show back then. Once they saw how popular May was there was just no reason to go back, and then of course May's success paved the way for Dawn and new companions in general every series after. It's also a little ironic that even 20 years later May is still one of the most focused on female leads of the series, but I guess that's because the roles for female companions kinda diminished over time. I'm glad they got things right for a character most of us grew up with.

It’s really a shame that it seems that the role of the female companion kinda peaked at May and Dawn where they could be considered to be Ash’s equal in importance as well as action. Iris was also a battler but was basically a parallel to Misty in wanting to master Pokemon type, Serena took far too long to find a goal and even then was undercut in terms of action and it was just downhill from there to the point that even when we have the first female protagonist, she’s still not allowed to be action oriented and instead basically approaches non-villain plot points with talk no jutsu. Really wish we could get more of the May/Dawn kind of girl and less of the Serena/Koharu model.

 

[Alola]

I can see why the writers decided to permanently write Misty off the show back then. Once they saw how popular May was there was just no reason to go back,

Was May really that popular initially though? I recall that there was apparently a lot of backlash (at least with Western audiences) with her replacing Misty and an appreciation for her character didn't cement itself until a good chunk into the AG saga. Given that Brock's focus shifted twice (from Gym Leader to Breeder, and then Breeder to Doctor) while Misty's was static and intangible, it makes sense she got replaced to allow through more story telling through Ash's other female companions; well, barring when GF decided to poorly reboot things with BW for the sake of nostalgia (imo).

and then of course May's success paved the way for Dawn and new companions in general every series after.

This I agree with, although it's a shame they plateaued with Dawn. Iris, Serena, the Alolan girls, and Chloe never got a fraction of the bottom-up development the Coordinator duo had. I miss it.

 

[FelipePR]

Was May really that popular initially though? I recall that there was apparently a lot of backlash (at least with Western audiences) with her replacing Misty and an appreciation for her character didn't cement itself until a good chunk into the AG saga.

Not sure, but I believe that initially the character was not so well received. In fact, she received a lot of backlash for replacing Misty, and to be fair, while May is a great character in her own right, she didn't have the same level of chemistry with Ash as Misty, or that Dawn would later present.

Pokémon Advanced, as we know, was a major restructuring of the animated series so that many puritanical and nostalgic fans, as often happens, released their frustrations on the newly added characters. It doesn't help either that the series has a slow and inconsistent start, as there were possibly still doubts among the producers themselves about the new path to take.

Still, at the end of her generation, I believe, May was already a character well loved by fans of the franchise. I remember that during Best Wishes saga (2011~2012), I came across pools about favorite Pokégirls by the public, one on an English forum (I think that Serebii.net, not sure) and another on a large forum in Spanish (which if I'm not mistaken had almost 6k votes), and May, surprisingly, came first in both polls.

Today however, like her saga itself, the character is certainly out of the spotlight.

 

[Falaish]

Was May really that popular initially though? I recall that there was apparently a lot of backlash (at least with Western audiences) with her replacing Misty and an appreciation for her character didn't cement itself until a good chunk into the AG saga. Given that Brock's focus shifted twice (from Gym Leader to Breeder, and then Breeder to Doctor) while Misty's was static and intangible, it makes sense she got replaced to allow through more story telling through Ash's other female companions; well, barring when GF decided to poorly reboot things with BW for the sake of nostalgia (imo).

This I agree with, although it's a shame they plateaued with Dawn. Iris, Serena, the Alolan girls, and Chloe never got a fraction of the bottom-up development the Coordinator duo had. I miss it.

She was tremendously popular even when AG first started, most of the original fanbase had already largely drifted off the anime during the Johto years due to the filler. There was a lot of hype going into AG when it first began because it was the first series with many changes and back then there was no precedent for it. Most of the people who were complaining about Misty back then were either Pokeshippers or people who thought Misty had to be in the show forever, and most of those people never watched DP or any later series either, they just watch the OS and that's all. It's like how some people only like the original 151 pokemon, they just have no relation to the rest of the franchise

I'd also wager to say the reason Misty was phased out of the anime as quickly and easily as she was is because of this. Look how Misty's cameos/specials dwindled as AG went on, then by 2005 they just stopped bringing Misty back entirely and she wouldn't appear again for 12 years and multiple gens later till SM. The writers would have never been able to drop Misty so easily when most of the original fanbase was still around the target audience otherwise.

Also I think a lot of people have forgotten over the years that Misty's departure back in 2002 was an experiment at first, the writers had no idea at the time if the show would be successful with a new female lead. Unlike the Brock/Tracey switch where Brock was clearly much more popular, this time around the new female companion became just as popular or perhaps moreso than the original. Also remember most of May's fanbase came from original Kanto fans, that's who was largely watching when AG was new besides new little kids who got into the show at the time.

Misty's glaring absence for over 80% of the anime obviously would not have happened if May didn't become so popular so fast convincing the writers to phase Misty out. I mean prior to SM most people were convinced Misty would never appear in the show again because the writers ignored her for all of DP, BW and XY as well as Battle Frontier.

 

[Rockapheller]

Most of the people who were complaining about Misty back then were either Pokeshippers or people who thought Misty had to be in the show forever, and most of those people never watched DP or any later series either, they just watch the OS and that's all. It's like how some people only like the original 151 pokemon, they just have no relation to the rest of the franchise

To be frank, I love Misty as a character (and I am not shipping any character with another character for that matter). The problem was not Misty herself that her presence was becoming more of a burden to the anime, but because the writers never bothered to give her some goal as substantial as Ash's gym quest to make her relevant in any way. The bike excuse could not really go on like that for years in the show run. I wish the bike was just beginning of her journey with Ash, and she had kept a goal along with Ash. That didn't necessarily have to be something like collecting items such as badges or ribbons and training Pokémon, but something more subtle like looking for a Pokémon (akin to Eusine) or something along these lines and give her some room to grow would change a lot of issues she had with the main cast.

It felt really good and refreshing when Misty was replaced with May in AG series. As a big Misty fan, even I felt it was indeed much needed. But also it wasn't May as a character alone that made the difference, but because the way writers handled her was much better than Misty to begin with (lesson learned). Also Misty's replacement with May kind of covered the same issue we had with Brock during Johto as well.

 

[FelipePR]

I have to vent here (I didn't intend to, but after repeatedly coming across the same issue...). I'm tired of reading people's complaints about Dawn's team not having any changes since the end of DP until her last appearance in Pokémon Journeys.

Come on, while representing the passage of time and a Trainer's progress through changes in their team and evolutions is a constant in the series, this is actually the cheapest way to do it. I was also frustrated with Dawn's role in Pokémon Journeys, and I don't believe that a simple change in her team would be enough to satisfy me or change my opinion about her character's involvement.

What made May and Serena's comebacks notable, in my opinion, was how the characters themselves were portrayed: more confident, mature, assertive, and certain of the path they were taking, so their growth felt genuine. The evolution of some of their Pokémon was just the icing on the cake, a metaphor for the development that the characters conveyed to us in each new scene and interaction they were present in.

My perception of Serena's appearance wouldn't change at all if the few scenes that inform us that her Braixen evolved into a Delphox were removed. Not even the criticized weak representation of Contests in that episode was enough, in my opinion, to undermine the return of the character who, from her meeting with Chloe to her farewell to Ash, conveyed to us a pristine demeanor.

On the other hand, although we were gifted with Dawn's presence in several episodes, the absence of care given to the character's representation, to her story, and the lack of interest to provide her with a meaningful role in this new series, that goes beyond just evoking nostalgia and promoting the games, is evident and striking.

And although I understand the fans' frustration due to the inadequacy of no development being shown, with Dawn seemingly in the same situation and possibly facing the same dilemmas as over a decade ago, a simple change in her team or a new evolution would not be enough to alter such representation.

So let's stop crying and venting our frustration on incidental circumstances, the lack of representation of progress in changes in her own team, and let's move on to face and discuss the real issue. After all, given the screen time Dawn had, her return was worth much more than just having the depcition of an evolved Lopunny or Typhlosion.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I have to vent here (I didn't intend to, but after repeatedly coming across the same issue...). I'm tired of reading people's complaints about Dawn's team not having any changes since the end of DP until her last appearance in Pokémon Journeys.

Come on, while representing the passage of time and a Trainer's progress through changes in their team and evolutions is a constant in the series, this is actually the cheapest way to do it. I was also frustrated with Dawn's role in Pokémon Journeys, and I don't believe that a simple change in her team would be enough to satisfy me or change my opinion about her character's involvement.

What made May and Serena's comebacks notable, in my opinion, was how the characters themselves were portrayed: more confident, mature, assertive, and certain of the path they were taking, so their growth felt genuine. The evolution of some of their Pokémon was just the icing on the cake, a metaphor for the development that the characters conveyed to us in each new scene and interaction they were present in.

My perception of Serena's appearance wouldn't change at all if the few scenes that inform us that her Braixen evolved into a Delphox were removed. Not even the criticized weak representation of Contests in that episode was enough, in my opinion, to undermine the return of the character who, from her meeting with Chloe to her farewell to Ash, conveyed to us a pristine demeanor.

I can understand your point since both May and Serena came off as having different personalities after traveling on their own. However, I wouldn't really say that having new Pokemon was just icing on the cake. That was physical proof of how they had been working towards their goals off-screen, showing that their efforts have proven some results, even if it was off-screen for the audience. It's also kind of hard for me to see giving characters new evolution as the cheapest way to show their progress when the vast majority of returning character across the various series have some new evolutions for their teams. It feels more standard than cheap to me in that regard.

On the other hand, although we were gifted with Dawn's presence in several episodes, the absence of care given to the character's representation, to her story, and the lack of interest to provide her with a meaningful role in this new series, that goes beyond just evoking nostalgia and promoting the games, is evident and striking.

And although I understand the fans' frustration due to the inadequacy of no development being shown, with Dawn seemingly in the same situation and possibly facing the same dilemmas as over a decade ago, a simple change in her team or a new evolution would not be enough to alter such representation.

So let's stop crying and venting our frustration on incidental circumstances, the lack of representation of progress in changes in her own team, and let's move on to face and discuss the real issue. After all, given the screen time Dawn had, her return was worth much more than just having the depcition of an evolved Lopunny or Typhlosion.

I can understand being tired of hearing this complaint about Dawn's team when you didn't like how her role and story were handled in general through her appearances in Journey. This has been a frequent complaint pretty much since her second appearance. However, I think it is still a valid complaint when I think every other character who appeared in Journeys had new Pokemon on their teams and/or showed that they were making progress off-screen. The only other exception might have been Cilan since I don't recall him having new Pokemon or doing anything for his goal in his one episode appearance. Plus, Dawn is a popular female lead and many would argue that she is the best written female lead thus far. Having her be stagnant is rather disappointing for her fans, especially when she got to appear so much in Journeys. I don't think it's fair to tell people to stop venting about this when it's a pretty understandable complaint.

I think that her stagnant team is a sign of the real issue as opposed to be something completely different. It shows that despite all of the traveling she has done off-screen, she hasn't made any progress since BW or arguably the end of DP. Dawn's appearances might not have been perfect if she had a Lopunny or Typhlosion. She probably wouldn't have been a Top Coordinator and not having a proper Contest in any of her returns was still a huge waste, but it would have shown that she had improved her skills through her off-screen adventures. The fact that the writers couldn't really show that is frustrating and disappointing. I will say that I still like Dawn's personality in Journeys. She does feel more in character than she did in BW, her chemistry with Chloe was good and I liked her interactions with Ash too. It was just a shame that they couldn't actually focus on her character. Contests aren't the only thing about Dawn, but that is a huge part of her storyline and never giving her a proper Contest to showcase her skills was disappointing. The setup was so easy with having Chloe to see one of her Contests. It could have even been a way to make her stagnant team be less disappointing if we could see how her appeals and battle skills had become more polished since DP too, but they didn't do that, which is such a shame.

 

[BeautifulSylveon]

I find it extremely hypocritical to make Pikachu say its name in Concierge while other Pokémon from the same series all make noises. I don’t think the "Ohtani’s voice is iconic" is a solid argument because, if that were the case, all other Pikachu would have been voiced by her by the time her voice became iconic.

IIRC, Pikachu made noises in Origins. Furthermore, the games stopped using her voice with PLA (for the first time since B2W2, not counting BDSP’s DS Sounds Option).

I would have preferred the Concierge Pikachus to make noises like the other ones in this series.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

Dawn is overrated and not as good a coordinator as May.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Dawn is overrated and not as good a coordinator as May.

I can understand finding Dawn to be overrated, but I don't really see how May is a better coordinator. Dawn at least got to the finals of a Grand Festival, something that May wasn't able to do as far as we know.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

I can understand finding Dawn to be overrated, but I don't really see how May is a better coordinator. Dawn at least got to the finals of a Grand Festival, something that May wasn't able to do as far as we know.

Yeah, but May never lost a contest she participated in before getting to the second round first, whereas Dawn did so twice. In a row.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Yeah, but May never lost a contest she participated in before getting to the second round first, whereas Dawn did so twice. In a row.

I don't think that means May was a better Coordinator though, especially when Dawn's losing streak was an important part of her storyline. It wasn't just to make her look weak, but to show her flaws in her combinations and to learn how to handle her defeats. Plus, May could have lost a few more Contests to help her grow in similar way too.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

I can understand finding Dawn to be overrated, but I don't really see how May is a better coordinator. Dawn at least got to the finals of a Grand Festival, something that May wasn't able to do as far as we know.

To be honest Dawn wasn’t all that great a character. She seemed like a somewhat less good version of May. I think May also no longer does contests. She decided she wouldn’t make a career out of them so it was time to move on with her life and find a new calling for herself.

 

[Dr. Gro 3001]

To be honest Dawn wasn’t all that great a character. She seemed like a somewhat less good version of May. I think May also no longer does contests. She decided she wouldn’t make a career out of them so it was time to move on with her life and find a new calling for herself.

If anything, Journeys makes it seem like it is the opposite that happened. Dawn practices contest moves, but we don't really see her participate in any contests while appearing in Journeys. May is actually participating in a Super Contest during Ash and Leon's battle in the Masters 8 tournament.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be honest Dawn wasn’t all that great a character. She seemed like a somewhat less good version of May. I think May also no longer does contests. She decided she wouldn’t make a career out of them so it was time to move on with her life and find a new calling for herself.

That still doesn't explain your opinion about how May was a better Coordinator. Dawn at least came pretty close to winning a Grand Festival while May has not. Considering that we only saw a couple of brief scenes with May in her OR/AS Contest outfit, I think that's a pretty strange conclusion to jump to. She could easily still do regular Contests on top of the Contest Spectaculars or whatever they were called. Realizing that she needed a career change also just feels strange to me since she's only ten. I just find it hard to read that much into a silence cameo. Even wearing that OR/AS Contest outfit could be seen as them wanting to make her match more with her video game counterpart much like they did with Iris.

 

[Falaish]

I will say Dawn making it to the finals in her first regions Grand Festival was rather forced when you realize her semi-finals match was against Jessie of all people and we only saw like 2 minutes of it making it seem like Dawn beat Jessie very easily. The writers probably only had Dawn make it to the finals because they knew it would be the last series with Contests so they gave it a last hurrah of sorts, since they wanted to stop just short of her winning the whole thing.

Dawn is talented obviously but if she faced say Nando in the semi-finals like Zoey did instead, Dawn would have lost in the top 4. I don't see her beating Nando at all given how talented he looked in that battle.

 

[Dr. Gro 3001]

@Falaish If anything, I think the discourse is that Zoey should not have beaten Dawn in the finals. Either because Dawn seemed to perform better than Zoey at certain parts or how Zoey didn't get penalized for things that Dawn got penalized for.

 

[FelipePR]

To be honest Dawn wasn’t all that great a character. She seemed like a somewhat less good version of May. I think May also no longer does contests. She decided she wouldn’t make a career out of them so it was time to move on with her life and find a new calling for herself.

Anything is possible, but I think you're going down to a fanfic route here.

That still doesn't explain your opinion about how May was a better Coordinator. Dawn at least came pretty close to winning a Grand Festival while May has not. Considering that we only saw a couple of brief scenes with May in her OR/AS Contest outfit, I think that's a pretty strange conclusion to jump to. She could easily still do regular Contests on top of the Contest Spectaculars or whatever they were called. Realizing that she needed a career change also just feels strange to me since she's only ten. I just find it hard to read that much into a silence cameo. Even wearing that OR/AS Contest outfit could be seen as them wanting to make her match more with her video game counterpart much like they did with Iris.

I barely do/did contests in the franchise games, but, as far as I know, the regular Ruby/Sapphire contests are, in OR/AS, called Contest Spectaculars. So, although the changes are more radical in the anime universe, isn't it possible that the same thing could have happened in relation to the anime contests?

On the other hand, the only Contest Spectacular depiction is the one from episode 105 of Pokémon Journeys, or not? Which was extremely rushed and criticized.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

Anything is possible, but I think you're going down to a fanfic route here.

But it was so long between appearances it’s possible. Plus I highly doubt May is only still 10. She’s got to be at least 14-15.

 

[SlyGecko]

But it was so long between appearances it’s possible. Plus I highly doubt May is only still 10. She’s got to be at least 14-15.

If Ash is still 10 by the point we seen May in journeys, then May is still 10.