Did you know? - Bulbapedia has a Tier List

[matsy]

Its no wonder that the state of the pokemon community online is mostly made up of idiots.

Are you one of them?

I don't understand what you're trying to say: all you did was flame us. I tried to be as inoffensive as I could in my post, I'm sorry if I have offended you. Maybe I don't know what Bulbagarden is about, but I thought it was supposed to be an Encyclopedia. If not, please correct me, no need to flame. An Encyclopedia provides information. I was just trying to convey my point that the tier list is an important aspect of pokemon battling, and as such should be covered, accurately, by an Encyclopedia. I came to Bulbagarden because on Serebii, I tried to assure someone that Garchomp was indeed Uber. They argued that Bulbagarden still had it in OU. As a result, I had to end my battle with that person.
The tier list needs to be updated and maintained. Does anyone on these forums even have the privileges or the means of editing the tier list, or is this a waste of time?

 

[Luna Tiger]

Bulbapedia is supposed to be a Pokemon Encyclopedia. People should be able to come here and get accurate information regarding battling, since the entire game is based on battling.
When it comes to battling, there are clear distinctions between what people have come to call 'tiers'. Obviously there are Ubers, which are too powerful and ruin the metagame, whether it be competitive or Wifi.
Then there are those Pokemon which are used considerably more than others, for whatever reason. These have been labelled OU. Obviously some Pokemon are too weak to compete in an environment filled with these "OUs": these pokemon are UUs. But there are still non-OU Pokemon that dominate the UU environment: these are placed in BL.
It is folly to deny or ignore the existence of such tiers, as they are readily apparent.
In an Encyclopedia, people would expect to be able to find accurate information regarding which Pokemon are in which tiers, for the purpose of Standard, BL/UU, or UU battling on Wifi or competitively.
If the Bulba staff are not experienced or knowledgable enough to present an accurate or at least passable tier list, they should let MrBlack or any of the other people like him help out, since this IS a Wiki we are talking about.

The point of an encyclopedia is to bare FACTS. The tiers aren't FACTS; they're subjective ideals that someone who isn't related to the gaming industry in any way "created" and listed. Competitive battling is all based on SUGGESTION and personal preference. There is no fact involved. It's all chaotic and messy and has no point in an encyclopedia, especially when the tiers are constantly on the change and shift about from label to label. Definition of the terms OU, UU, BL, Uber, whatever deserve to be on the encyclopedia because those are FACTS to the fandom in general. What makes an Uber...is purely subjective to the battling itself and therefore, any can change from place to place, meaning it's UNencyclopedic.

If Smogon says Garchomp is an Uber, why did you go to Bulbapedia to prove your point anyway?

Besides, competitive battling probably deserves its own Wiki, because it's extensive information...but you already have Marriland and Smogon to help out, so what should it be on the 'Pedia anyway?

 

[Mr. Black]

Don't state facts if they're no factual. Bulbagarden is already bigger than those two sites. Deal with it.

Where did you two idiots come from anyway? Because its clear you don't know a thing about Bulbagarden or anything like that. Sure competitive battling is huge and sure Bulbapedia could cover it. But they don't need to make their own tier system if they choose not to. And honestly you two above sound like real dickheads to me.

Its no wonder that the state of the pokemon community online is mostly made up of idiots. All pathetic in their ultimate fanatical way, that they're blinded by anything and everything. Really to sign on and reply to this thread is ultimately pathetic. Particularly with the shit that you two actually typed.

---

Now on to my bit towards such a subject. The bulbapedia should have some aspect of competitive battling that much is true. That does not mean however, that you need a Tier list. What you could do is have an article about it, what popular tier lists are used, ie. Smogons. Perhaps some mention about criticisms of such tier list. Perhaps have some stuff about the pokemon competitions in the US etc. I dunno really, but you could do something decent.

You say replying to this thread is pathetic. Guess what you just did.

OK whether Bulbagarden is more popular than them or not is missing my point, my point is to make it MORE popular and this could be readily achieved by simply expanding into the large area of Pokemon that is Wi-Fi and Competitive Battling.

Your post seems to be much more attacking me than my actual point. Instead of focussing on trying to offend the poster or lower their rep or something, actually focus on the point, you can say as much as you want about the poster but it doesn't support your argument at all. And your opinion means nothing to me so really there's no point at all, I advise you keep your judgments to yourself and instead focus on supporting your argument.
'Where did you two idiots come from anyway?' as an example - how is adding idiots in there relevant at all. All it does is make your post look less professional, more opinionated and basically like a desperate attack because you can't come up with valid points. Like trying to stab someone with a knife in a fist fight, but you missed and it cost you the fight.
And making a blanket statement like 'the shit that you two actually typed' - I'm sorry but I can't take that seriously at all. It means nothing. I took the TIME to write that up, I put thought into it and went through the trouble of backing up and validating my points, whereas you just go and do... what I've explained above (and below).

We sound like dickheads? You're going out of your way to post a flame at us for giving our views and trying to help. And further than that, you say this: 'the state of the pokemon community online is mostly made up of idiots. All pathetic in their ultimate fanatical way, that they're blinded by anything and everything'
A blanket statement, no, flame, about the entire Pokemon online community. And you call us dickheads who 'state facts that aren't factual'. I'm not calling you a dickhead. Just take a step back and look at your own post and consider. I don't mean to offend you, if anything sounds that way please understand I'm just explaining why I'm disregarding most of your post.

I really don't want to start a flame war, I have done everything I can not to personally attack you or publically judge you or flame you. I'm just explaining why I can't take your post into account.

Now, onto my point again, the following is not directed at you.

Like I said, I was using Tier List as an example. And it is possibly the biggest topic of debate in the world of Competitive Battling, and a core element in the way people train and battle.

For example, someone new might want to train a Beedrill thinking it's good, then sees its NU or UU on the tier list and doesn't waste their time training it. This is not my view, for the record, but this is one common view. On the flipside, someone might only be looking to train UUs, for use in UU battles or even in OU for whatever reason... and without knowing what's UU, they can't really do that.

People have only chosen Smogon because they consider it the best, not because it is perfect. For example, many people strongly disagree with Weezing being UU, where it is on Smogon's list. The quest for an accurate Tier List is still going for many people, and where other sites have not stepped up Bulbapedia can.

Your last statement, however, has some truth - well you agreed Bulbapedia should incorporate Competitive Battling which is my main point. But just creating an article doesn't really cut it in such a massive topic. It's like summing up the Pokemon Anime in one article. What the site needs to incorporate Competitive Battling is, for example, possible strategies or combinations for abilites and moves. Example, for the ability Guts:

==Strategy== (or a similar relevant heading)
Guts can work well in combination with Flame Orb or Toxic Orb. Both, after one turn, inflict their respective status to the holder, immediately activating the 1.5x Atk boost. The move Protect can also be used to protect the Pokemon for the turn it takes to activate the Orb.

How can adding such a section cause any detriment AT ALL? This is what I do not understand in people's reluctance to include Competitive Battling related information. How can having EXTRA information, as long as its accurate, be bad at all? Surely an encyclopaedia aims to have as much relevant, accurate information as possible, so why DENY extra information? Such an example as above is relevant, it's accurate, it's not going to detract from the site at all... so what possibly justifies it NOT being included, or TAKING IT OUT if someone takes the time to add it?? I just don't get it.

I added a section like that to the ability Adaptability. I explained how Porygon-Z, with Adaptability and Life Orb, after one Nasty Plot, can OHKO standard Blissey (which has no SpD EVs and max HP) with Hyper Beam. This is entirely true and relevant. Standard Blissey and Porygon-Z are both commonly used Pokemon (especially Blissey) - and nothing else can boast the ability to OHKO standard Blissey with Special after one move. Perfectly relevant and accurate. So why take this information out? Yet someone did.
I contribute to the site, I lend some of my experience and knowledge in the area I know best. I guarantee someone will see that information as useful or interesting at least, and it won't cause ANY negative effect on Bulbagarden AT ALL... but someone deletes it. I really just don't get it.

 

[Mr. Black]

The point of an encyclopedia is to bare FACTS. The tiers aren't FACTS; they're subjective ideals that someone who isn't related to the gaming industry in any way "created" and listed. Competitive battling is all based on SUGGESTION and personal preference. There is no fact involved. It's all chaotic and messy and has no point in an encyclopedia, especially when the tiers are constantly on the change and shift about from label to label. Definition of the terms OU, UU, BL, Uber, whatever deserve to be on the encyclopedia because those are FACTS to the fandom in general. What makes an Uber...is purely subjective to the battling itself and therefore, any can change from place to place, meaning it's UNencyclopedic.

If Smogon says Garchomp is an Uber, why did you go to Bulbapedia to prove your point anyway?

Besides, competitive battling probably deserves its own Wiki, because it's extensive information...but you already have Marriland and Smogon to help out, so what should it be on the 'Pedia anyway?

Thank you for making valid points and arguments.

True that much of Competitive Battling is based on suggestion and personal preference. But if information is presented AS suggestion, like possible strategies that COULD be used if one wished, I don't see why we can't include that, or any reason why we shouldn't. It's not like someone's going to say 'You need to use Flame Orb with the ability Guts' or 'Guts is best used with Flame Orb and Protect' and if they did that would immediately get changed or deleted, which would be perfectly understandable. I see nothing wrong with a statement like 'One possible strategy with the ability Guts is to use the hold item Flame Orb or Toxic Orb to ensure activation of the ability.'

True, it is suggestion, but it is presented AS a suggestion... and OK, encyclopaedia's are based on fact, but take Wikipedia for example... I guarantee not everything on there is factual. But anything that isn't is presented in such a manner - you will see things like 'it is widely believed' and 'one possible explanation is'. That is all we would be doing here, incorporating Competitive Battling.

With the Tier List, it is easy enough to add something like - 'There is no official Tier List. Which Pokemon belong in which tier is ultimately decided by the player's personal preference, but to express the most popular preferences in a written Tier List gives people a reference point. One will choose the Tier List they believe most accurate, then use it to easily to express their preferences to their opponent. Then their opponent can choose to agree or not and both can abide to the combined decision without confusion or argument in the battle.
Because of their nature, Tier Lists are always subject to change.'

OK there is very likely a better way to put it but you get what I mean. As long as the reasons & use for it are stated clearly and that a Tier List is not set in concrete, what detriment can come from it? Some may choose to accept it, others may not, but that's all their choice. It's not like we're forcing anyone to believe anything, or stating anything opinionated/based on preference as fact.

 

[White Len]

I have never read an encyclopedia that tells you how to turn a silver atom and a copper atom into a gold atom. By that sense, Bulbapedia should not tell you how to make Smeargle PWN ASS. We're an Encyclopedia. Want battle strategies, go to GuideWiki or Smogon or Serebii.

 

[MAGNEDETH]

all of that above, too long, didnt read.

but what i did catch was some crap about battling. i believe i stated i am a competitive battler. but i sure as heck dont come to BP for battle strategies, or battles for that matter. youre barking up the wrong tree kid.

 

[The Outrage]

Seriously, half the points I see in that talk page is complete bullshit.

Encyclopedia =/= Strategy Guide

With that said, the furthest I believe we can go to in mentioning tiers, is the proper definition of those terms based on what they originally sprang out of. Bulbapedia doesn't even do that.

Want battle strategies, go to GuideWiki or Smogon.

fixed

Besides, competitive battling probably deserves its own Wiki, because it's extensive information...but you already have Marriland and Smogon to help out, so what should it be on the 'Pedia anyway?

I'd agree with that except for the fact that a wiki can be freely edited. Can you imagine the chaos caused by inexpreinced players joining a competitive wiki to edit Garchomp out from being uber despite the extensive testing to prove otherwise?

Also Mr. Black, I've written a couple analysis for a small website. A good thorough analysis of suggested movesets (includes items, natures, ev spreads and the works) and counters far exceed almost all the individual species pages.

I find it pointless to give pointers on the usage of individual abilities but ignore the species pages themselves. Then the arguement goes to "who would write it all?" Yeah there are competitive battlers on bulbagarden that are good, and some that just think they are good, but even then its going to wind up as almost identical to most other analyses out there (or a complete c/p in some (most?) cases like I've seen with other pages)

Oh and to get back onto the first point I made with this, almost all those pages would probably be protected because of people editing without proper knowledge or merely because they disagree with something, or even a case of "this is totally unique and needs to go there eventhough anyone with eyes can see how utterly redundant it is"

Its best to leave competitive battling to a competitive battling community.

 

[MAGNEDETH]

this is why im not a member of any competitive battling sites. people are jerks.

 

[matsy]

If Smogon says Garchomp is an Uber, why did you go to Bulbapedia to prove your point anyway?

I came to Bulbagarden because on Serebii, I tried to assure someone that Garchomp was indeed Uber. They argued that Bulbagarden still had it in OU. As a result, I had to end my battle with that person.

After reading Luna tiger's post, I can start to understand where you guys are coming from. Thanks.
Perhaps the best solution would be for Bulba to take down their tier list and replace it with definitions of each tier. That would all be fact, fitting for an encyclopedia. In addition, perhaps a link to a respected and tested tier list such as Smogon's would be appropriate, to provide an example of a tier list. Alternatively, provide the widely recognised Ubers tier (which is important for people to understand since Ubers are banned from standard) as an example, but steer clear of the controversially changing lower tiers.
I don't expect you to listen to me, hey I only have a handful of posts right?, but I just thought I'd make some suggestions, rather than flames.

RE MrBlack's Porygon-Z... I don't know what to make of this. It's a fact that the Hyper Beam will KO the Blissey, but as people have said this is an Encyclopedia not a strategy guide. However, noone asked MrBlack to do it, he put it up there for the benefit of bulba, and I'm unsure why someone would go out of their way to remove this information.

I'd agree with that except for the fact that a wiki can be freely edited. Can you imagine the chaos caused by inexpreinced players joining a competitive wiki to edit Garchomp out from being uber despite the extensive testing to prove otherwise?

A shame he isn't there where he is supposed to be...

I find it pointless to give pointers on the usage of individual abilities but ignore the species pages themselves. Then the arguement goes to "who would write it all?" Yeah there are competitive battlers on bulbagarden that are good, and some that just think they are good, but even then its going to wind up as almost identical to most other analyses out there

The reason they would end up the same is because it's accurate. As to the question of "who would write it all?", well, people like MrBlack. I won't claim to be an expert on individual pokes/abilities/etc, and I would never go to b'pedia for suggested EV spreads/movesets. I jumped on here to join the discussion about the tier list. But it seems like the 'pedia is in denial about the fundamental aspect of pokemon: battling.

 

[Mr. Black]

OK I can see people don't want Competitive Battling to be a part of Bulbapedia.

Fair enough.

I'm not needed here then.

If you ever change your mind and want to include something, post on my talk page and it'll send me an E-mail. But until then I shall leave Bulbapedia, I'm sure some people will be more than happy, for some reason.

Btw to Outrage DD - of course, I certainly would NEVER do copy/paste. I talk and analyse from my own, extensive experience.

And thank you for your support, matsy.

all of that above, too long, didnt read.

but what i did catch was some crap about battling. i believe i stated i am a competitive battler. but i sure as heck dont come to BP for battle strategies, or battles for that matter. youre barking up the wrong tree kid.

If you didn't read it, don't bother commenting. Your comment makes no sense in response to the post, since the whole POINT is that at the moment no one would ever consider Bulbapedia for battle related information. Would you try and explain the Da Vinci Code to someone without having read the book and have a good chance of getting it right? (and no the movie doesn't count)

And as for the rest of the people who just posted to flame, seriously, get a life... you're wasting your time writing pointless irrelevant posts like 'competitive battlers are jerks' and 'you guys are dickheads' and 'half the points i see are complete bullshit'. Back up your points, validate your arguments, and we might listen, but unjustified comments are worthless.

 

[The Outrage]

'half the points i see are complete bullshit'

I said what was posted on the tier's talk page was bullshit.

But first of all, we'll take a look at the main Appedix shall we?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tier_List

The definitions:

Uber

Ubers are considered by some to be too strong for standard play and thus have their own tier. Their use is generally restricted solely to Uber designated battles

It does not explain the proper criteria of being uber. An uber is a Pokémon with little to no counters who overcentralises the game by forcing nearly every team to have a counter towards it.

Based on how the metagame had shifted rapidly, Garchomp most certainly over centralised it for this generation. Wobbuffet of course has no counters really.

Over-Used

OU Pokémon are commonly found and considered by some to be the strongest in regular play

Magneton in the third generation sends its regards. It was an OU Pokemon back then merely because it killed Skarmory and nothing else.

Borderline

BL Pokémon are considered by some to be too strong for UU and may be found in some OU battles. They are classified as BL because they simply do not have the capacity to compete in solid OU consistently.

Yet another false statement. By going with the proper definition, Borderline is the ban tier of UU. Basically Pokemon who aren't actually overused fall to the underused tier. Borderline is UU's ban tier for those who over centralise the UU metagame.

The old talk page: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Appendix_talk:List_of_tiers/Archive_1

Does that mean I've used an NU Pokémon to beat the Elite Four in Emerald

Example of inexperience in the realms of competitive battling

Dewgong shouldn't be NU either. I used it in the Battle Tower to beat a Dragonite and a Garchomp in one move each, and they're both OU.

Example of "Pokemon x beat Pokemon y, therefore it is of equal or higher tier"

On both usage and usefullness based tiers that logic does not apply, a perfect example would be a SHedinja who beats all the standard Kyogre sets. For one to carry a move to kill Shedinja would just hinder the Pokemon as a whole.

I really think Hitmonchan should be a Border Line. It knows Three STAB Piority First Moves, Can Learn the All Mighty BoltBeam Combo (With Ice/Thunder Punch, of course) And for Crying Out loud, it can Own Blissly In one shot, or atleast Mine can.

Pointing out the bolded part of this statement. When has it ever been a brag-worthy moment for a physical Pokemon to kill a Blissey? Say it can kill Skarmory and we have a winner!

The tier list just looks like a bunch of opinions to me. A Pokémon's strength depends on its training as much as its species. Some Pokémon, like Magikarp, are obviously inefficent to use in battle, but a Toarkoal (listed as NU, btw) can destroy a Regice (listed OU) in a fair battle

All competitive battles are done at the same level so the first point is null and void. The Torkoal part once again uses that logic of "Pokemon X beats Pokemon Y therefore it is equal or better"

Also the whole Tyranitar thing and no one mentioning how all of Tyranitar's counters have been and still are physical attackers often packing some fighting move meaning all Sand Storm has done for it is make it better against specials. Also this comment on said discussion:

Sure I would. If the Metagross, Salamence and Weavile were not EV-trained and Unown has a good HP (Hidden Power) type, then I would pawn.

And to end my case:

Shouldnt a F.E.A.R rattatta be OU

Smogon says it's OU

Mr. Black, I did not mean to offend your knowledge of competitive battlign and did not mean to say that you would c/p. However, there are people who will just c/p an article way before you can get to making one or will just edit because they disagree with something proven.

And matsy, you don't need to remind me of the reason as to why tiers would look alike, I know its because if its right, then it would almsot certainly be the same. If oneanalysis of Garchomp is completely different from another, then all one can conclude is that one site has it right and the other is way off.

I just find it pointless for Bulbagarden to try that for two reasons:

1. We aren't an established Competitive Battlign community and are affiliated with Smogon anyway

2. All these new pages would most certainly cause problems to the server.

Spoiler

In trying to prove that I wasn't flaming Mr. Black, I probably pissed off a lot of people who posted on the talk page.

In addition, perhaps a link to a respected and tested tier list such as Smogon's would be appropriate, to provide an example of a tier list. Alternatively, provide the widely recognised Ubers tier (which is important for people to understand since Ubers are banned from standard) as an example, but steer clear of the controversially changing lower tiers.

And a link to Shoddy Battle's statistics pages so people know where this informatiuon is coming from (and I guess smogon has one to since they have a Shoddy Server)

RE MrBlack's Porygon-Z... I don't know what to make of this. It's a fact that the Hyper Beam will KO the Blissey, but as people have said this is an Encyclopedia not a strategy guide. However, noone asked MrBlack to do it, he put it up there for the benefit of bulba, and I'm unsure why someone would go out of their way to remove this information.

Depends on where he put it. If it was trivia, then I don't know why, it is an interesting little tidbit, though I'm not fond of that strategy myself when its other ability, Download far surpasses it in most other cases, especially with Choice Item Porygons and the proper prediction. Either the equivalent of a special version of Dragon Dance on the first turn or the equivalent of Nasty Plot (though with restrictions on moves).

 

[MAGNEDETH]

If you didn't read it, don't bother commenting. Your comment makes no sense in response to the post, since the whole POINT is that at the moment no one would ever consider Bulbapedia for battle related information. Would you try and explain the Da Vinci Code to someone without having read the book and have a good chance of getting it right? (and no the movie doesn't count)

i dont understand why youre trying to lecture us on competitive battling when this site is not a competitively battling site.

 

[White Len]

MAGNEDETH, you stand a better chance at getting your point across IF YOU FRICKIN READ OTHER'S PEOPLE'S COMMENTS.

 

[DCM]

Tiers are not Solid Facts, they are the opinions(dont know how to spell that word) of th Site Creators and the people that Use it. Is Garchomp an uber everywhere?I THINK NOT! Is Speed Form Deoxys an OU pokemon everywhere?PROBABLY NOT!

Tiers are opiniative and subjective.

Heres my point PLain and Simple:
Bulbapedia is a site based on FActs, while Tiers are unique to most sites(every site has a different one) and are subjective.Therefore not Facts, unless you want to make 5000+ tier lists

 

[White Len]

@DCM: Since every Pokemon has a possiblity of being in 1 of 6 tiers, and there are 493 Pokemon, then the total number of possible tiers lists are...493!/487! combinations. Oh wait! There are actually 532-25-2-1=504 choices, because of the different formes (minus Burmy, Missingno. and Unown). Which leaves the number of lists at...504!/498!.

Anyway, back to the subject. The tiers that we use are by Smogon. That's why I'm siding with Mr Black here (or would that be Krusty the Klown's best friend?). Isn't one of Bulbapedia's policies stating that we should NOT copy other people's work? So why are we taking Smogon's lists?

 

[PDL]

Anyway, back to the subject. The tiers that we use are by Smogon. That's why I'm siding with Mr Black here (or would that be Krusty the Klown's best friend?). Isn't one of Bulbapedia's policies stating that we should NOT copy other people's work? So why are we taking Smogon's lists?

Because people don't know enough about the competitive game to even begin making their own version.

 

[MAGNEDETH]

MAGNEDETH, you stand a better chance at getting your point across IF YOU FRICKIN READ OTHER'S PEOPLE'S COMMENTS.

OR, im referencing the foremost comment in the topic. "the tiers are wrong." well, fine, if we cant fix them, then get rid of them. inform people what they are, like an encyclopedia, and then give them a link to go somewhere else. if youre talking about something else entirely, then youre off topic.

 

[The Outrage]

So has everyone who has posted in this thread agreed that the tier list should go down yet? That's what I'm seeing.

 

[MAGNEDETH]

while i agree something should be done about it, the final word will have to come from a member of the Editorial Board. im thinking a simple explanation of what "Uber, OU, etc.." is will suffice. it should be noted, those things are all in our metagame terminology section.

 

[The Outrage]

How is it that those have a proper (well close enough that it doesn't cause confusion as to what they actually are) yet they use the exact same terms and practically change it? The only thing wrong in that page is the lack of mentioning that BL is also a ban tier.

Also if one needs more of a reason why tiers need to go, on that terminology list, someone put Garchomp as an example of an Uber apparantly and another person undid the edit because they think Garchomp is not uber despite the testing.

EDIT:
Damn that thing is so flawed. Apparantly SkarmBliss is the name for a team with Skarmory and Blissey now, and not the strategy of usng both Skarmory and Blissey to wall both sides of the offensive spectrum.