Do you think they'll ever replace Ash with Dawn?

[Rhyperior]

Again, the show INVOLVES Brock's and all the others story, involves doesn't necessarily mean the main focus.

And anyway, the "text" and also the narration pretty much serve as the same purpose. I think the Japanese Narrator also say Satoshi-tachi. You do have watch the Japanese Version, don't you?

Why do you consider Dawn a co-star but May a in-between? They serve the same purpose-to introduce contests. What the difference? IMAO, if you really consider the difference, May would have the upper-hand. You should consider May as co-star also if you consider Dawn as co-star. (or Dawn a in-between) What's the mistakes with May you keep talking about. The debut ep of Dawn should be the REAL mistake! She STOLE all the screentime from Ash!

P.S. My perspective is different from Weedle's. I am saying the show also involve other's story. Not only Ash and Dawn's. While I didn't say anything about Brock is as important as Ash.

 

[Piplup]

That's the thing here- Dawn didn't steal anything from Ash
DP opened with 3 episodes: first focus on Dawn, second focus equally on both, third focus on Ash
While AG opened with one episode that focused on Ash rather than May despite that was the beginning of her journey
That's just one example why I say May wasn't exactly the same as Dawn in her role... she was the first try so they still didn't do right some things with her while with Dawn they already had the experience from May
Contests aren't the ONLY thing about May and Dawn... their first episode is one example, another example can be the movies (May didn't do much in 6-8 and until she finally get to star in 9 Ash steal her the movie and save the day alone once again... while Dawn on her very first movie gets to save the day TOGETHER with Ash and later gets to star with Ash in 11 as well while Brock is neglected)
There's also the text in the OP that IS important... they didn't think May is important enough to change this while Dawn was considered important enough...
And more examples can be how Dawn is constantly coupled together with Ash on both merchandise and episodes/movies themselves (movies 10-11, their recurring high five, the current OP)
Dawn also came with a new mascot to be the star Poké together with Pikachu, May didn't
Count the episodes who focused on May in AG's first year and than count Dawn's episodes in DP's first year... you might be surprised

May IS one of the starring character, but she wasn't handled as good as Dawn and it still felt like Ash is the more important one... that's what I tried to say

 

[Rhyperior]

while Dawn on her very first movie gets to save the day TOGETHER with Ash and later gets to star with Ash in 11 as well while Brock is neglected)

Not exactly, it's Ash to scolded Palkia for being a fool, thus persuading to stop fighting. So it's also Ash to save the world. For movie 11 I don't know about it.

And Piplup wasn't exactly that of a mascot, if it really is, it should be out of its ball starting from DP001. Also the funny thing is, no one ever consider Meowth and Wobbuffet as mascots.

Also, Ash wasn't handle as good as the smart Ritchie. LOL.

So IMAO, Ash is still getting the upper hand.

 

[Piplup]

I mean in movie 10 Ash and Dawn climb together to put that disc in the tower they both together pull the lever to play it and than Ash's Pika and Dawn's Pachi use their electric to activate it

In 11 through the whole movie Ash and Dawn do everything together while Brock is left behind until the end where it looks like Ash is stealing the movie again but actually Dawn is still important since she help with the ice attacks and catch Shaymin when it fall at the end
So maybe they gave Ash the "heroic" action again but they also gave Dawn important things to do at the same time as Ash does his thing (while Brock does nothing once again)

Maybe Ash still gets a LITTLE more than Dawn
But it's a great improvement than how they did it with May

 

[Rhyperior]

I mean in movie 10 Ash and Dawn climb together to put that disc in the tower they both together pull the lever to play it and than Ash's Pika and Dawn's Pachi use their electric to activate it

That didn't force Palkia to return to its dimension. It's only after Ash shouted at it. I know what you refer to. But it's Ash who actually got the idea. (Though it's Dawn who placed Oracion correctly.)

In 11 through the whole movie Ash and Dawn do everything together while Brock is left behind until the end where it looks like Ash is stealing the movie again but actually Dawn is still important since she help with the ice attacks and catch Shaymin when it fall at the end
So maybe they gave Ash the "heroic" action again but they also gave Dawn important things to do at the same time as Ash does his thing (while Brock does nothing once again)

I wouldn't say once again for Brock. Brock's action in movie 10 can also be considered important, help blocking the attacks with Croagunk, lead the villagers to evacuate etc. And many characters also have important things in previous movies.

Maybe Ash still gets a LITTLE more than Dawn
But it's a great improvement than how they did it with May

A little? Just look at how Dawn lose badly in the contests. I know Ash rechallenge but there's only one officially.

 

[Piplup]

That didn't force Palkia to return to its dimension. It's only after Ash shouted at it. I know what you refer to. But it's Ash who actually got the idea. (Though it's Dawn who placed Oracion correctly.)

The real "save the day" scene was what I talked about... not this second Ash tell Palkia to change back the town

I wouldn't say once again for Brock. Brock's action in movie 10 can also be considered important, help blocking the attacks with Croagunk, lead the villagers to evacuate etc. And many characters also have important things in previous movies.

See? Even if Brock "did something" it's nothing compared to Ash and Dawn's roles in these movies

A little? Just look at how Dawn lose badly in the contests. I know Ash rechallenge but there's only one officially.

What?... I never said Ash and Dawn are equal in their amount of wins or anything like that
Their role on the DP series is the same: they're both the stars and are equal in their importance

 

[Rhyperior]

The real "save the day" scene was what I talked about... not this second Ash tell Palkia to change back the town

And in that scene, it should be Ash who ordered Pikachu and Pachirisu to charge the battery if I'm not mistaken.

And you know what? If Brock didn't do the things mentioned, the villagers may have all died! Who knows?

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

Wait, I thought Ash DIDN'T have a rival in the previous journey (AG, I mean.).

Was I exclusively referring to AG? No. I'm referring to past rivals, Gary, Harrison, and yeah, even later rivals of AG in Morrison, Tyson, etc... Paul is being handled better than them all. Every character, and even Pokemon, are getting better treatment this season. The writer's have had regions and regions to work with in creating the formula they've used in Sinnoh. So no one should act like it's just Dawn whose getting treated better.

Technically, considering how Bulbapedia listed all of them as "Main Protagonists" instead of Side Characters, they are also technically co-stars as well. (Plus, as I said, Misty was also labeled as a Co-star anyways.). Besides, "TvTropes" doesn't list any of the characters under any of the Sidekick characterizations at all.

Because Bulbapedia also created Webster's dictionary right? And Bulbapedia or TVtropes have been there since the time of Shakespeare and the beginning of theatre correct? The protagonist is the main or central character of the series whose goals are to be realized or persued throughout the given literary or production work. It is through them that the plot unfolds and through them that we are taken through the story. Ash is the protagonist in the story. The same way that Team Rocket, Gym Leaders, etc... are the antagonists in that they are the characters who keep him from his success. That's the difference between he/May/Dawn, and characters like Brock/Misty/Max/Tracey. Do you think I care what some fansite of Pokemon states? No, we're going by real classifications, not fansite fabrications. They're supporting characters in that they assist the protagonist. They have major roles in the plot compared to the minor characters, yeah, but protagonists they are not. There's nothing "technical" about what you said. I've just given the technical breakdown of the protagonist, antagonist, and supporting character.

In fact, the only actual support characters, by Bulbapedia's definition would be Professor Oak, Nurse Joy, Officer Jenny, and the Contest Judges.

Great, now search the definitions of character types in/on something that's not show-specific.

Well, technically, Ash isn't the central character, either, considering how most of the episodes he has appeared in don't really focus on him at all (Be it if they focus on one of the other main characters, or even just a COTD), not to mention that, even as early as season 1, they referred to the entire group as "Our Heroes", which implies that all of them are the central characters (and thus, Ash isn't THE central character).

We've been following Ash's journey since Episode 1. Without Ash, there is no plot to unfold, and therefore, there is no Pokemon anime (thus far). He's the central character. Brock does indeed have his quest to become the world's best Breeder, and like I said, DP's displayed his skills quite a bit, but that fact does not take us through the show like Ash's journey to become a Pokemon Master. So no, there's nothing "technical" about what you just said, stop throwing that word around.

Plus, as the Main Protagonists section has him sharing the spot with Misty, Brock, May, Dawn, and even the likes of Tracy, Todd and Max, he's not really the central character. Plus, while not as big of an example, the show's title doesn't really have his name in it.

Wrong, the quest and lead roles are shared by the likes of the others, but they are not responsible for the plot's progression. They are there to accompany on Ash's journey. Brock made that clear in his introduction episode, Misty made that clear in the forest, May and Max made that clear, and even Dawn has. They all ask to accompany him on HIS journey.

Co-Star I'll give you, in that they're all main characters. But it's been made clear since episode one that Ash is the protagonist of the Pokemon series. Learn the differences between these things.

Hey, I think Dawn's better than May, but only marginally, in my case.

By "better" you mean...?

I don't get this stupidity of telling us Ash was here from the beginning
So what? No one said Dawn was equal to Ash when she didn't exist yet
When I say Dawn is equal to Ash I obviously mean out current series, DP in which Ash doesn't "have more episodes" and isn't shown as more important than her at all but as equal

Stupidity?? Before everyone snuffed you, your original statement was that the two were equals, there was no "in DP" attached to that claim, and there was nothing "obvious" about that addition. You didn't add that in until so many people laid down the the grand scheme of things. Had you not idiotically made such bold claim in your original statements about the two being equals, we probably wouldn't have had this problem.

And once again, I point out that YOU were the one who said that Ash, despite his 12 seasons, was "not a fixated character". So again, no one would have to bring it up if you didn't make such outlandish comments.

And by the way, the fact that you state "No one said Dawn was equal to Ash when she didn't exist yet" shows your clear lack of understanding towards the point being presented, so who are you to call it a stupid one to make? We all know Dawn didn't exist at the time. We're pointing out that the show has long ran without her, and with Ash as the central star. She's only been a protagonist and co-star now for a couple of seasons. The point is therefore that there is nothing "equal" about them. You cannot call something "equal" just because they temporarily share focus, because as of right now she's still just a generation-specific character. THAT is the point. Your nonsensical statement quoted above implies that you can't even grasp the notion at hand because you're referrencing an argument that no one was even making.

Due to the fact that Ash has been the long-time star of Pokemon, and Dawn thus far appears to be a generation-specific character, nothing's equal about them, not fans, not attention, not duration, not experience, nothing. She's a co-star, and protagonist, but that does not equate her to Ash. Stating "for a season" practically makes it an oxymoron.
-----


Anyway, as far as the actual topic question goes; another point to consider is what happened to Yugioh once the original cast was replaced. That was practically the nail in the coffin for it according to a lot of fans. That's not the only show that's happened with, but it's an easily recognizable one by a lot of people here. I imagine the same thing would happen if Ash were to be replaced.

 

[Burning Bush]

Yes I agree. If Ash was taken out of the anime, I'd be very upset and stop watching the show anymore. Its about Ash, it's Pokemon. The fact is this discussion I believe, is to do with people believing that Pokemon is sexist.

That oh Ash is a man so he must be the best, that's how I see it I'd just like to state, this now. The fact is Ash is the best character we have seen in the series so far. Because he has done the most.

 

[Evil Raichu]

It would be interesting, that's for sure. But I doubt they'll be getting rid of Ash just yet. I think that if Ash ever says goodbye, it will be after he does something really major like wins the whole pokemon league.

I could see one day, the show being about the male protagonist (not Ash) from the games and the female protagonist travelling together on a pokemon journey, no Brock, no Team Rocket or anything. I'd miss the old show, and I don't see this happening for a long, long time, but maybe one day.

 

[Piplup]

The fact is Ash is the best character we have seen in the series so far.

It's not a fact and can't be a fact
It's an opinion
I like May and Dawn about as much as I like Ash if not even more and I think they are great characters with great stories and character development

 

[Nyarth]

Ash will always be the main character no matter what =D

 

[Rhyperior]

It's not a fact and can't be a fact
It's an opinion
I like May and Dawn about as much as I like Ash if not even more and I think they are great characters with great stories and character development

I think Burning Bush did say that the reason is because Ash did the most?

 

[Burning Bush]

It's not a fact and can't be a fact
It's an opinion
I like May and Dawn about as much as I like Ash if not even more and I think they are great characters with great stories and character development

Its true he has done the most, isn't it? He has been in the anime since it started, so that means he has achieved the most, meaning in terms of actual evidence I can back up and will do if you wish. He is better than both Dawn and May.

 

[Jayc]

Its true he has done the most, isn't it? He has been in the anime since it started, so that means he has achieved the most, meaning in terms of actual evidence I can back up and will do if you wish.

So what are you trying to imply by saying that he's achieved the most? And, by the way, debut time =/= achievements. If it were so, JJM would have been heads of TR by now.

He is better than both Dawn and May.

The fact is Ash is the best character we have seen in the series so far. Because he has done the most.

He's better than both Dawn and May in battles, that's a given. He's not as good in Contests, obviously. What do you mean when you say "better"? If you meant that he's the best character (and that's still not explaining much), achievements =/= good character. If that were true, all the Champions would have to be good characters.

 

[Burning Bush]

So what are you trying to imply by saying that he's achieved the most? And, by the way, debut time =/= achievements. If it were so, JJM would have been heads of TR by now.





He's better than both Dawn and May in battles, that's a given. He's not as good in Contests, obviously. What do you mean when you say "better"? If you meant that he's the best character (and that's still not explaining much), achievements =/= good character. If that were true, all the Champions would have to be good characters.

I mean a better Pokemon Trainer.

Contests are boring, I'm sorry but they don't appeal to me, Pokemon is about... the Pokemon themselves, Pokemon trainers and battles... so basically.

I like Ash because he is a very sweet and kind hearted person, which is shown in the anime over time. Some of it even gets past the bad American dub also thankfully. I'll admit these days Pokemon tends to be a bit lackluster in terms of emotional story-lines. But he still has done what he has done, shown absolute strength in times of adversity and always been a beacon of hope for his friends.

The thing is this thread is only here to wind up Ash fans, that's obvious I mean look at my profile. I'm a Dawn hater now according to some 14 year old kid? Isn't that nice, why are you all so worried about Pokemon its just a kids show.

 

[Brago]

I mean a better Pokemon Trainer. Contests are boring, I'm sorry but they don't appeal to me, Pokemon is about Pokemon trainers and battles... meaning Ash is a good character who is quite simply un-replacable.

You know, i really don't like contest either, but unfortunately they're there, so we've to respect the ones who like them.
By a good character, you mean "nice, cool, lovable" and that he's the soul of the show? i would agree.

 

[Burning Bush]

You know, i really don't like contest either, but unfortunately they're there, so we've to respect the ones who like them.
By a good character, you mean "nice, cool, lovable" and that he's the soul of the show? i would agree.

I do respect all Pokemon fans' this doesn't mean I will take abuse from them. Especially when its personal abuse like the kids on Serebii.net think they can pull on me. I think we all need to calm down a bit and stop being so angry over some show. Pokemon is a nice programme why aren't the fans of it nice? I do wonder. But meh I have the right to talk here, as you all do.

Its just my opinion that replacing Ash wouldn't work.

 

[Brago]

I do respect all Pokemon fans' this doesn't mean I will take abuse from them. Especially when its personal abuse like the kids on Serebii.net think they can pull on me. I think we all need to calm down a bit and stop being so angry over some show. Pokemon is a nice programme why aren't the fans of it nice? I do wonder. But meh I have the right to talk here, as you all do.

Its just my opinion that replacing Ash wouldn't work.

Actually, maybe it's just a matter of comprehension. You used words that confused us like "Ash is better than May" without precising how. Maybe some people thought that was childish (no offense) or i don't know ... Just feel free to express your opinion (with precise arguments ;-) so there won't be any misunderstanding. You know i've been through there too)

 

[Burning Bush]

Actually, maybe it's just a matter of comprehension. You used words that confused us like "Ash is better than May" without precising how. Maybe some people thought that was childish (no offense) or i don't know ... Just feel free to express your opinion (with precise arguments ;-) so there won't be any misunderstanding. You know i've been through there too)

I do speak out of turn, I mean no offensive by this. I am just sick of this whole fan of 'May' or 'Dawn' thing pushing the Pokemon community apart.