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Contest Empoleon vs Serperior

Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

SuperSeaking said:
I going to have to go with this guy. If Jalorda invests in Sp. Defense and Sp. Attack, its able to survive one of Empoleons Ice Beams and 2HKO it with Perversity Leaf Storm. At least, I think that would happen.
Click to expand...

Yeah. It's odd that people are giving Empoleon the benefit of credit here just because of his access to Ice Beam. If you are wondering, the calculations I got are as follows:

Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Jaroda uninvested = 73.5% - 86.6%
Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 42.9% - 50.8%
Click to expand...

From the calculations, we can see that some people are overestimating Empoleon's offence, as unless Empoleon increases his Special Attack or switches to Blizzard, more damage is dealt. Of course, the attack is very hefty, so the second question comes in: who's faster? Empoleon's Base Speed is 60, and Jaroda's is 113. That's obvious, isn't it? Jaroda gets 2 attacks against Empoleon's 1. Let's see how much Jaroda does with Leaf Storm (assuming Perversity is on):

Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Empoleon uninvested = 51.5% - 60.5% (+2 = 101.9% - 120.4%)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Empoleon with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 30.6% - 36.3% (+2 = 60.8% - 71.8%)

(For the same Empoleon who tries to KO Jaroda...)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 HP & 4 SpA = 42.2% - 50% (+2 = 84.1% - 99.5%)
Click to expand...

In this cases, Empoleon had a fair (not guaranteed) shot in winning the fight if he maxes his defences and if he's packed Choice Specs (Life Orb doesn't count because he would lose). But the same offensive Empoleon trying to take Jaroda down would lose for sure. Empoleon would then had to rely on luck to win, which are Leaf Storm misses, critical hits and Ice Beam freezing.

That was why I think Jaroda had the advantage in a fight against Empoleon, because of Speed and powerful Leaf Storms. It would probably not be the same case if Blizzard is used, but since no one says Blizzard, my point stands that Ice Beam is not enough to take on Jaroda.

Thanks for reading.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Hello? Bird Pokemon against Grass-Type Pokemon? Water/Steel-Type that can learn Ice-Type moves against a Grass-Type?
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

I hate Empoleon with a burning passion, and Tsutarja is one of the two grass types that I respect enough to use. Thus Jaroda is my vote.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

I like Empoleon more, both for design, movepool (it can even learn Signal Beam which mops up any Psychic or Dark out thar) and personal atachment, since it was my first starter.
But Jaroda/Jalorda doesn't fall behind too much, it's just some steps.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

GoldenrodGirl~ said:
Hello? Bird Pokemon against Grass-Type Pokemon? Water/Steel-Type that can learn Ice-Type moves against a Grass-Type?
Click to expand...
Typing is at times important, but isn't all there is to these kind of things. Winstein's previous posts show that Jaroda's stats can make him a likely winner.

So, in a battle between the two, Jaroda would probably win, but otherwise, I like Empoleon slightly better...
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Smuglord looks cooler, so I'm gonna go with him.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Empoleon is more useful (much more useful), but I prefer Jaroda's design.

I went with Jaroda.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

winstein said:
Yeah. It's odd that people are giving Empoleon the benefit of credit here just because of his access to Ice Beam. If you are wondering, the calculations I got are as follows:



From the calculations, we can see that some people are overestimating Empoleon's offence, as unless Empoleon increases his Special Attack or switches to Blizzard, more damage is dealt. Of course, the attack is very hefty, so the second question comes in: who's faster? Empoleon's Base Speed is 60, and Jaroda's is 113. That's obvious, isn't it? Jaroda gets 2 attacks against Empoleon's 1. Let's see how much Jaroda does with Leaf Storm (assuming Perversity is on):



In this cases, Empoleon had a fair (not guaranteed) shot in winning the fight if he maxes his defences and if he's packed Choice Specs (Life Orb doesn't count because he would lose). But the same offensive Empoleon trying to take Jaroda down would lose for sure. Empoleon would then had to rely on luck to win, which are Leaf Storm misses, critical hits and Ice Beam freezing.

That was why I think Jaroda had the advantage in a fight against Empoleon, because of Speed and powerful Leaf Storms. It would probably not be the same case if Blizzard is used, but since no one says Blizzard, my point stands that [U]Ice Beam is not enough to take on Jaroda[/U].

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...

what about avalanche? Avalanche's base power double after getting hit. Is base power would go form 60 to 120, although the Royal Bird does lose a bit with physical attack rather then a Special Attack.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Jalorda.It will forever be the best.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Jalorda is cuter, now that I know it's not a gothic rendition of the other two.

A 50-50 split before I voted? Wow.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Xellos-_^ said:
what about avalanche? Avalanche's base power double after getting hit. Is base power would go form 60 to 120, although the Royal Bird does lose a bit with physical attack rather then a Special Attack.
Click to expand...

Avalanche only doubles if the attacker is hit, so with that in mind, let's calculate the damage as if Empoleon had maximised his attacking potential (Adamant (+Atk/-SpAtk), 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band):

Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda uninvested: 58.4% - 69.4%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda uninvested: 116.8% - 138.1%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 37.9% - 44.6%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 75.1% - 88.7%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 39.5% - 46.9%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 78.5% - 92.7%
Click to expand...

There you have it, Jaroda is able to survive Empoleon's attacks, even when Empoleon attacked, so Jaroda is safe if he invests in defence. Too bad Jaroda wasn't able to set up Substitute, though...note that Avalanche always go last, so Empoleon cannot use Choice Scarf in hopes to get the jump. What can Jaroda do to Empoleon in that case? If Empoleon fully invested in Attack, then the best he can do against Jaroda is to invest in HP and Special Defence. But this time, Jaroda carries Choice Specs because Empoleon can never outspeed Jaroda, no matter what his investment is (and the fact Jaroda will not have a -Speed Nature), and Jaroda isn't even investing in Special Attack, and also assuming Perversity is the ability.

Damage received against Empoleon (4 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs): 45.5% - 53.5% (+2: 90.3% - 106.5%)
Damage received against Empoleon (252 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs, +SpDef Nature): 34.1% - 40.6% (+2: 68.5% - 80.6%)
Click to expand...

That's a lot of damage there! The boost from Choice Specs help, of course, and so with that, on the physical side, Empoleon also has no chance of winning unless, like before, he gets lucky. As for Drill Peck, If Avalanche isn't capable of even KO-ing Jaroda first, it's obvious Drill Peck cannot do the same, and even if Empoleon is faster, Drill Peck cannot 2HKO (because no Choice Band boost), so Jaroda's the winner, unless, once again, Empoleon gets lucky. That's to say Empoleon is always at a disadvantage if he goes Physical.

Thanks for reading.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Empoleon. At least he has arms and legs. I just don't like a snake as a starter.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Jalorda: YEAH I HAVE ANTAGONIST LEAF STORM WHAT NOW BIT-
*Empoleon Ice Beams Jalorda*
Simple as that.
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

Arc Blader said:
Jalorda: YEAH I HAVE ANTAGONIST LEAF STORM WHAT NOW BIT-
*Empoleon Ice Beams Jalorda*
Simple as that.
Click to expand...

Uh...
Yeah. It's odd that people are giving Empoleon the benefit of credit here just because of his access to Ice Beam. If you are wondering, the calculations I got are as follows:

Quote:

Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Jaroda uninvested = 73.5% - 86.6%
Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 42.9% - 50.8%
From the calculations, we can see that some people are overestimating Empoleon's offence, as unless Empoleon increases his Special Attack or switches to Blizzard, more damage is dealt. Of course, the attack is very hefty, so the second question comes in: who's faster? Empoleon's Base Speed is 60, and Jaroda's is 113. That's obvious, isn't it? Jaroda gets 2 attacks against Empoleon's 1. Let's see how much Jaroda does with Leaf Storm (assuming Perversity is on):

Quote:

Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Empoleon uninvested = 51.5% - 60.5% (+2 = 101.9% - 120.4%)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Empoleon with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 30.6% - 36.3% (+2 = 60.8% - 71.8%)

(For the same Empoleon who tries to KO Jaroda...)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 HP & 4 SpA = 42.2% - 50% (+2 = 84.1% - 99.5%)
In this cases, Empoleon had a fair (not guaranteed) shot in winning the fight if he maxes his defences and if he's packed Choice Specs (Life Orb doesn't count because he would lose). But the same offensive Empoleon trying to take Jaroda down would lose for sure. Empoleon would then had to rely on luck to win, which are Leaf Storm misses, critical hits and Ice Beam freezing.

That was why I think Jaroda had the advantage in a fight against Empoleon, because of Speed and powerful Leaf Storms. It would probably not be the same case if Blizzard is used, but since no one says Blizzard, my point stands that Ice Beam is not enough to take on Jaroda.

Thanks for reading.

Avalanche only doubles if the attacker is hit, so with that in mind, let's calculate the damage as if Empoleon had maximised his attacking potential (Adamant (+Atk/-SpAtk), 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band):

Quote:

Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda uninvested: 58.4% - 69.4%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda uninvested: 116.8% - 138.1%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 37.9% - 44.6%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 75.1% - 88.7%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 39.5% - 46.9%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 78.5% - 92.7%
There you have it, Jaroda is able to survive Empoleon's attacks, even when Empoleon attacked, so Jaroda is safe if he invests in defence. Too bad Jaroda wasn't able to set up Substitute, though...note that Avalanche always go last, so Empoleon cannot use Choice Scarf in hopes to get the jump. What can Jaroda do to Empoleon in that case? If Empoleon fully invested in Attack, then the best he can do against Jaroda is to invest in HP and Special Defence. But this time, Jaroda carries Choice Specs because Empoleon can never outspeed Jaroda, no matter what his investment is (and the fact Jaroda will not have a -Speed Nature), and Jaroda isn't even investing in Special Attack, and also assuming Perversity is the ability.

Quote:

Damage received against Empoleon (4 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs): 45.5% - 53.5% (+2: 90.3% - 106.5%)
Damage received against Empoleon (252 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs, +SpDef Nature): 34.1% - 40.6% (+2: 68.5% - 80.6%)
That's a lot of damage there! The boost from Choice Specs help, of course, and so with that, on the physical side, Empoleon also has no chance of winning unless, like before, he gets lucky. As for Drill Peck, If Avalanche isn't capable of even KO-ing Jaroda first, it's obvious Drill Peck cannot do the same, and even if Empoleon is faster, Drill Peck cannot 2HKO (because no Choice Band boost), so Jaroda's the winner, unless, once again, Empoleon gets lucky. That's to say Empoleon is always at a disadvantage if he goes Physical.

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...

Winstein gave an EXTREMLY Detailed post about how Ice-Beam won't cut it... Empoleon loses...
 
Re: Empoleon vs Jalorda

I'm counting on Jalorda to help me through Unova. Never found Empoleon that useful in story.
 
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Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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