English as a second language

[inkysquid12]

I really started this thread as i wanted to get an outsiders view on the worldwide use of the English language (although any views are welcome). For example, does it annoy people who live outside of English-speaking countries that we often speak English to locals when abroad but expect others to speak English if they visit our country?
Also, what do people think about English being called 'The Universal language'.
I know i would find it hard to adjust to not speaking my first language almost exclusively, but i've grown up being able to speak English everywhere.

Apologies if i am being ignorant.

 

[Barb]

I don't think English is the "universal language." The only language I know of that is shared by all humans regardless of race, gender, or religion is mathematics.

Where I live (south Florida) there seems to be some prejudice against Spanish-speaking immigrants, whether legal or illegal. Due to the political influence of the large Cuban population in Miami, most street signs are in Spanish as well as English. The same goes for automated phone systems in almost any business: "press 1 for English, 2 para Espanol." If I moved to Cuba or any other country whose primary language isn't English, I'd expect to have to learn that language in order to live my life.

 

[Illidan]

While I agree that it's wrong to expect other people in other countries to speak English when an English-speaker travels there, I believe you should know (or at least have a grasp of) the primary language spoken in the country you are in.

A change may have occurred in some regions, but the primary language in the United States remains English. If anyone from a foreign country comes here and expects to thrive, they should learn and understand English.

I'm a college student, therefore I'm forced to work in retail for some spare cash. I can't tell you how many times I've had a Spanish/French/German person come up to me and get angry because I can't understand what they're saying.

It goes the other way as well. If I go to Japan, I damn better well learn Japanese.

 

[Murgatroyd]

I don't think English is the "universal language." The only language I know of that is shared by all humans regardless of race, gender, or religion is mathematics.

You'd be surprised at how non-universal mathematics (beyond basic whole-number arithmetic) is.

And while "universal language" may not be an accurate term to describe English, "lingua franca" is.

 

[the gadfly]

And while "universal language" may not be an accurate term to describe English, "lingua franca" is.

Isn't lingua franca a reference to French being the language of diplomats and elites? It once was because France was powerful and dominant beginning with the reign of Louis XIV. Now, English is dominant in business and science because of the results of World War II. I believe it's the official language used by air traffic controllers throughout the world. English too will fade from prominence in time. My money is on Mandarin becoming the next lingua franca.

 

[Barb]

You'd be surprised at how non-universal mathematics (beyond basic whole-number arithmetic) is.

Actually, that's how I've heard several scientists describe mathematics. What exactly do you mean?

And lingua franca is a pretty good description of English.

 

[RBYGSCRSFRLGEPD]

@the_gadly: Other lingua francas have faded in prominence, but I don't know about English. At least, English's situation is very different from its predecessors is that its prominece coincides with the huge globalization of the world, compared to even a century ago.

Of course, English as we know it today would probably not survive--but I suspect that something closely related to it will remain the most prominent language for a very long time...
...unless something drastic and unexpected happens to the world. Which, for all we know, might happen. -_-

As for me, I only know one person who doesn't know English well--she speaks Korean and Japanese.

 

[the gadfly]

Of course, English as we know it today would probably not survive--but I suspect that something closely related to it will remain the most prominent language for a very long time...

That is indeed the singular strength of English, namely it so readily absorbs words from other languages and makes them part of its vocabulary. And it makes up new words all the time.

I would guess if someone from today spoke with one of the founding fathers of the U.S., there would be a great deal of confusion. Even greater confusion would result from speaking with William Shakespeare. Can anyone nowadays even read Chaucer in the raw?

Yet, we call the language we use and they used "English". There's no reason to believe things will be any different a couple of centuries from now.

However, the lingua franca doesn't depend on a language's flexibility. It depends on which state is dominant in any given part of the world. Given China's ever-increasing economic muscle, and possibly its military muscle, Mandarin will challenge English as the language to learn to get ahead in much of Asia and other parts of the world.

 

[The Big Al]

The sun never sets on the British Empire. 'nuf said.

 

[RBYGSCRSFRLGEPD]

Actually, there wouldn't be that much confusion with the Founding Fathers. You could read The Federalist, or The Declaration of Indepence, and so on without any difficulty, assuming that your knowledge of English is at what some call "college-level".

Shakespeare, on the other hand...

But, what do I know? I know nothing--perhaps I'll live to see Mandarin become a lingua franca. They're already anticipating that in some Korean schools, I know.

 

[inkysquid12]

Also, what does anyone think about the possibility there will one day be one, official human language. In the future when there are colonies living not only on Earth, but other planets too (even if they are in bubbles) there will probably be a codified and universally accepted inter-planetary language. Do you think it will be an existing language, or a newly created one, possibly based on other already-existing languages.

Personally, i would bet on it being the primary world language at the time the first self-supporting bases on other planets are colonised. I see little reason for it to change after that, besides a major upheaval. Almost certainly it will be mandarin or english, though i think it unlikely that mandarin characters would be used, as there are too many to make it a viable language in that respect (at least 3000). Possibly mandarin words and pronunciation but converted into words formed using the alphabet.

 

[the gadfly]

The sun never sets on the British Empire. 'nuf said.

And U.S. English replaced U.K. English during the American Century. Not exactly the same language, but close enough.

Actually, there wouldn't be that much confusion with the Founding Fathers. You could read The Federalist, or The Declaration of Indepence, and so on without any difficulty, assuming that your knowledge of English is at what some call "college-level".

No, there wouldn't be any confusion since those documents were written in what I'd call Standard English even if the spellings are different from what we're used to seeing.

The confusion would come from made-up terms like "television" and "telephone" as well as terms that have changed their meaning like "gay" and phrases like "you're so bad."

Also, what does anyone think about the possibility there will one day be one, official human language. In the future when there are colonies living not only on Earth, but other planets too (even if they are in bubbles) there will probably be a codified and universally accepted inter-planetary language. Do you think it will be an existing language, or a newly created one, possibly based on other already-existing languages.

What you're describing is what the world of Star Trek would call "Standard." I don't doubt it will happen someday. But it won't happen until we encounter another intelligent lifeform from some other planet or star. At that point, the existing lingua franca would crystalize as the language all humans use to communicate with the aliens and with each other. Of course, whatever languages existed would continue to be used, but they'd eventually exist as secret languages.

Almost certainly it will be mandarin or english, though i think it unlikely that mandarin characters would be used, as there are too many to make it a viable language in that respect (at least 3000). Possibly mandarin words and pronunciation but converted into words formed using the alphabet.

Agreed.

 

[Zhen Lin]

English, despite its various shortcomings in terms of spelling and grammatical expressiveness, is more suitable as a lingua franca because it readily accepts and absorbs foreign vocabulary for foreign concepts. As one author put it, "We don't just borrow words. On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." This is critical for any modern scholarly language.

Mandarin on the other hand not only has a major barrier to entry in terms of orthography, but also phonologically as well - it has some sounds which are considerably less common such as retroflexes, alveolo-palatals, apical vowels and not last but not least, tones. Furthermore, because of the disambiguating powers of the writing system, writers can and do write passages that would be incomprehensible when spoken due to homophony.

I really doubt that Chinese characters will be abandoned anytime soon. It's too much of a cultural icon. The lesser-known second simplification of Chinese characters was not well received and abandoned, and of course, some areas have not even implemented the first simplification yet.

 

[the gadfly]

English, despite its various shortcomings in terms of spelling and grammatical expressiveness, is more suitable as a lingua franca because it readily accepts and absorbs foreign vocabulary for foreign concepts. As one author put it, "We don't just borrow words. On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." This is critical for any modern scholarly language.

You'll get no argument from me. I said more or less the same thing earlier in this thread.

Mandarin on the other hand not only has a major barrier to entry in terms of orthography, but also phonologically as well - it has some sounds which are considerably less common such as retroflexes, alveolo-palatals, apical vowels and not last but not least, tones. Furthermore, because of the disambiguating powers of the writing system, writers can and do write passages that would be incomprehensible when spoken due to homophony.

Yet, all those difficulties haven't stopped Mandarin being designated as the official language of China even though there are sections of the country that haven't spoken Mandarin before.

Somehow, Mandarin seems to be spreading through China.

Not to mention, here in the United States, Mandarin is becoming a popular foreign language elective when ten years ago, it wasn't even an option.

There must be some reason. The simplest reason is economic. If a major, perhaps your biggest trading partner speaks Mandarin, perhaps it's to your benefit to speak in your trading partner's language.

I really doubt that Chinese characters will be abandoned anytime soon. It's too much of a cultural icon. The lesser-known second simplification of Chinese characters was not well received and abandoned, and of course, some areas have not even implemented the first simplification yet.

Wasn't that same situation for Japan?

As Japan became an economic powerhouse, and as it became more integrated with the rest of the world, did not the simplified version of its characters become more prevalent? Isn't that the form the rest of the world uses if they choose to communicate in "Japanese"?

Why would China be any different?

 

[Zhen Lin]

Yet, all those difficulties haven't stopped Mandarin being designated as the official language of China even though there are sections of the country that haven't spoken Mandarin before.

I said nothing about any of the other Chinese languages. The rest are easily as evil - Cantonese has 7 tones. Minnan has 6 tones which undergo a chain shift in words, as well as nasalised vowels. Shanghainese has more vowels than English.

Furthermore, Mandarin is the dialect spoken in the Beijing area. National languages tend to standardise around the capital - modern standard Japanese around Tokyo, modern standard Korean around Seoul, modern standard German around Berlin - and so on.

Somehow, Mandarin seems to be spreading through China.

Don't underestimate the power of decades of mandatory schooling in Mandarin. (What, you thought people were schooled in their native dialect? Dialect in China is essentially confined to conversational use only. The fact that few dialects have a standardised orthography makes it difficult for them to be anything but purely spoken languages.)

There must be some reason. The simplest reason is economic. If a major, perhaps your biggest trading partner speaks Mandarin, perhaps it's to your benefit to speak in your trading partner's language.

Eh, for me that is the weakest reason there is to learn a language. I learn languages to access the culture behind it, or because I have interest in it in itself.

Wasn't that same situation for Japan?

As Japan became an economic powerhouse, and as it became more integrated with the rest of the world, did not the simplified version of its characters become more prevalent? Isn't that the form the rest of the world uses if they choose to communicate in "Japanese"?

The shinjitai, as they are known in Japanese, are a set of simplifications that were implemented by the government. They are nowhere near as far-reaching as the Chinese simplifications, though it attracted controversy as well. There are still those who write in the old orthography (rekishiteki kanazukai) with kyūjitai, but those are just traditionalists. Moreover there is only one Japan, which is the only country that uses Japanese to such an extent.

Why would China be any different?

I don't know, what are you talking about? The simplified characters of China are now widely accepted for writing the modern language (except in Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan).

But make no mistake, simplified they may be, but you still need to learn in excess of 3,000 characters to be considered literate, and well-educated Chinese know 4,000 to 5,000 characters.

Some hard numbers -
The number of characters on the xiàn dài hàn yǔ cháng yòng zì biǎo (PRC) is 3,500.
The equivalent chart in the ROC, the cháng yòng guó zì biāo jǔn zì tǐ biǎo, has 4,808 characters.
The equivalent chart in Japan, the jōyō kanji, has 1,945 characters, plus a supplementary 983 jinmeiyō kanji, which are used in names.

 

[the gadfly]

I am way past my bedtime, so I apologize in advance if I say something I'm going to regret tomorrow.

Furthermore, Mandarin is the dialect spoken in the Beijing area. National languages tend to standardise around the capital - modern standard Japanese around Tokyo, modern standard Korean around Seoul, modern standard German around Berlin - and so on.

Isn't that the natural course of nations, to develop a common language spoken throughout the land?

Don't underestimate the power of decades of mandatory schooling in Mandarin. (What, you thought people were schooled in their native dialect? Dialect in China is essentially confined to conversational use only. The fact that few dialects have a standardised orthography makes it difficult for them to be anything but purely spoken languages.)

That doesn't surprise me at all. Schools in the U.S. are English-only. Always have been.

(What, you thought people were schooled in their native language?)

Students who don't know English are put into an English as a Second Language class until they can join the mainstream.

Eh, for me that is the weakest reason there is to learn a language. I learn languages to access the culture behind it, or because I have interest in it in itself.

Maybe that's because you have the luxury to learn another language and the culture behind it.

Most people learn another language out of economic necessity. Here in the U.S., people from Mexico or other Latin countries, whether they're here legally or not, have a powerful incentive to learn rudimentary English to get bottom-level work. With better English skills, they can move up the ladder. The better their English is, the better their economic status is.

Now apply the lesson to China. Peasants can remain in their villages, or as ever increasing numbers are, migrate to cities like Shanghai where Mandarin is the common language. If they didn't already know Mandarin, wouldn't they have a powerful incentive to learn it to get a decent job?

 

[inkysquid12]

I don't have a clue how many characters the alphabet officially has. I know that traditionally, it varies (traditional Italian derivation of the Latin Alphabet lacks J, K, Y etc, while English and French alphabets contain all 26 letters). Do characters with cedilla's count as seperate characters for example? If anyone can shed any light on this i would be grateful.

 

[Murgatroyd]

I don't have a clue how many characters the alphabet officially has. I know that traditionally, it varies (traditional Italian derivation of the Latin Alphabet lacks J, K, Y etc, while English and French alphabets contain all 26 letters). Do characters with cedilla's count as seperate characters for example? If anyone can shed any light on this i would be grateful.

There's really no such thing as "official" for this. Some countries have a government agency in charge of the language, and the official number of characters in the alphabet, and their standards of what counts as a separate character, may vary from country to country (I think I recall a change in Spain's alphabet sometime in the last couple of decades, getting rid of ll and ñ as letters). Others don't have any such agency, and the language is defined entirely by its users.

 

[TTEchidna]

No, no. Spanish got rid of ll and ch as letters. Ñ still remains.

I think there's something like that for most languages... The MLA does it for English.

 

[Zhen Lin]

English is not a regulated language, as opposed to say, French, German or Spanish. But, where there is no official language institution, usually the ministry of education (as in Japan) or a prominent dictionary (as in English) can be considered the de facto language institution.