Generation VII Legendary Pokemon Discussion

[The Outrage]

I really hope Solgaleo isn't fire (long shot) or electric type just because every other lion Pokemon has been either fire (e.g., Pyroar, Entei) or electric (e.g., Luxray).

almost makes me want Light type to be a real thing

I can see Solgaleo becoming Fire/Psychic since Psychic types are still affiliated with "cosmic" and outer-space themes (e.g., Deoxys, Beheeyem, Cosmic Power, Gravity, Olympia), even if the moon has now been taken by Fairy Pokemon. Or Fire/Dragon given that the other space Pokemon were Dragon

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Random thought: Solgaleo represents the sun, Lunaala represents the moon. We potentially have another Pokemon named Marshadow representing Mars, but who represents the Earth?

We can already see from Pokemon GO's logo that the Earth also plays in thematically to the new generation's image, but we currently have no Pokemon representing it.

What if Complete Zygarde is the representation of the Earth? It's a Pokemon that's supposed to defend the Earth's ecosystem and the franchise was building it up in the anime with full knowledge that Gen VII is on the horizon. I'm not saying Zygarde plays a major role, but that like what other pro-Gen VII people have been saying, that its story will continue in Gen VII.

Yes, it was gross to have to think about Zygarde

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

Actually, the Pokedex specifically says Kalos' ecosystem is monitored by Zygarde. Sorry.

I just hope that these two get a decent role in the story this time, rather than just. "Mwahahaha, look at this legendary Pokemon I'm going to use! Oh no, it betrayed me. It has no role in the game other than these 5 minutes of storyline.

 

[Esserise]

Actually, the Pokedex specifically says Kalos' ecosystem is monitored by Zygarde. Sorry.

Pokédex entries can be amended. They did this just recently with Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza.

 

[The Outrage]

Actually, the Pokedex specifically says Kalos' ecosystem is monitored by Zygarde. Sorry.

And up until ORAS, Rayquaza didn't eat meteorites. Hoopa made absolutely no reference to a second form until ORAS.

Zygarde's Kalos entry could specifically refer to 50% Zygarde, whereas I noted that Complete Zygarde would be the Earth counterpart to Solgaleo and Lunaala. Not to mention that its Y/AS entry was much more vague, reading:

"It's hypothesized that it's monitoring those who destroy the ecosystem from deep in the cave where it lives."

It is only X and OR that specifically says this:

"When the Kalos region's ecosystem falls into disarray, it appears and reveals its secret power"

That entry doesn't specifically exclude Zygarde from monitoring other ecosystems, just that Zygarde has been observed appearing in Kalos. The anime has multiple Zygarde cores--you wouldn't need more than one observing Kalos.

I've noted in another thread that the time difference between France and Hawaii is exactly 12 hours so if Zygarde has multiple cores watching over the Earth's ecosystem, it would be strategically placed around the world (e.g., on opposite ends) rather than all in one region.

 

[_PuddleCat_]

Lunaala could be Bug/Dragon and Cosmic? Solgaleo would end up being Fire/Cosmic but it seems like a perfect cue for a Cosmic Type, even if we just had the Fairy-Type. But think what a Cosmic Type could mean - rebalance Electric and Normal?

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

And up until ORAS, Rayquaza didn't eat meteorites. Hoopa made absolutely no reference to a second form until ORAS.

Zygarde's Kalos entry could specifically refer to 50% Zygarde, whereas I noted that Complete Zygarde would be the Earth counterpart to Solgaleo and Lunaala. Not to mention that its Y/AS entry was much more vague, reading:

"It's hypothesized that it's monitoring those who destroy the ecosystem from deep in the cave where it lives."

It is only X and OR that specifically says this:

"When the Kalos region's ecosystem falls into disarray, it appears and reveals its secret power"

That entry doesn't specifically exclude Zygarde from monitoring other ecosystems, just that Zygarde has been observed appearing in Kalos. The anime has multiple Zygarde cores--you wouldn't need more than one observing Kalos.

I've noted in another thread that the time difference between France and Hawaii is exactly 12 hours so if Zygarde has multiple cores watching over the Earth's ecosystem, it would be strategically placed around the world (e.g., on opposite ends) rather than all in one region.

I guess this is a good point, lots of different things could happen, and with the multiple cores of the anime, it does make sense. I'd say that they never said Ryquaza doesn't eat meteorites, bit they never said Zygarde only monitors Kalos, so it's a fair point. anything can happen.

 

[Mitchman]

I really hope Solgaleo isn't fire (long shot) or electric type just because every other lion Pokemon has been either fire (e.g., Pyroar, Entei) or electric (e.g., Luxray).

almost makes me want Light type to be a real thing

I can see Solgaleo becoming Fire/Psychic since Psychic types are still affiliated with "cosmic" and outer-space themes (e.g., Deoxys, Beheeyem, Cosmic Power, Gravity, Olympia), even if the moon has now been taken by Fairy Pokemon. Or Fire/Dragon given that the other space Pokemon were Dragon

------

Random thought: Solgaleo represents the sun, Lunaala represents the moon. We potentially have another Pokemon named Marshadow representing Mars, but who represents the Earth?

We can already see from Pokemon GO's logo that the Earth also plays in thematically to the new generation's image, but we currently have no Pokemon representing it.

What if Complete Zygarde is the representation of the Earth? It's a Pokemon that's supposed to defend the Earth's ecosystem and the franchise was building it up in the anime with full knowledge that Gen VII is on the horizon. I'm not saying Zygarde plays a major role, but that like what other pro-Gen VII people have been saying, that its story will continue in Gen VII.

Yes, it was gross to have to think about Zygarde

Zygarde is a weird case. It fits with the gen 6 legendaries because of the obvious XYZ thing going on. And design wise it makes up the core Red/Blue/Green thing Pokemon has, with a secondary black color to go with that,much like how the shinies line up as well. Then you have its special unused moves, which work for Xerneas and Yveltal because one is on the ground and the other as a flying type. However, that could not be the case as it could be seen that the ability Aura Break is for the XY duo, and the movea are for the SM Duo instead.
Representing the Earth instead of Balance would be interesting, but when one side is Life and Death, and the other side Sun and Moon, I strain my mind trying to think how this all fits together. Even as a separate lore branch for both with no correlation between Kalos and Alola, I can't see how a Trio Member can fit in with the lore of another Duo when there is no clear design similarities to tie them together. I have to articulate my thoughts and organize everything before I give a realg o on analyzing and speculating just how Zygarde can fit into the games, and if Kalos and Alola are perhaps two sidea of the same coin or not. Cause I genuinely think there is something when considering if the whole Sundial/Moondial thing can lead somewhere.


On another note, I think there are two legendary locations again. You can tell by Solgaleo appearing in front of a bigger shrine, and the sigils are mirrored. Perhaps the twin summits of the big island are version exclusive?

 

[BigBadButterfree]

Zygarde is a weird case. It fits with the gen 6 legendaries because of the obvious XYZ thing going on. And design wise it makes up the core Red/Blue/Green thing Pokemon has, with a secondary black color to go with that,much like how the shinies line up as well. Then you have its special unused moves, which work for Xerneas and Yveltal because one is on the ground and the other as a flying type. However, that could not be the case as it could be seen that the ability Aura Break is for the XY duo, and the movea are for the SM Duo instead.
Representing the Earth instead of Balance would be interesting, but when one side is Life and Death, and the other side Sun and Moon, I strain my mind trying to think how this all fits together. Even as a separate lore branch for both with no correlation between Kalos and Alola, I can't see how a Trio Member can fit in with the lore of another Duo when there is no clear design similarities to tie them together. I have to articulate my thoughts and organize everything before I give a realg o on analyzing and speculating just how Zygarde can fit into the games, and if Kalos and Alola are perhaps two sidea of the same coin or not. Cause I genuinely think there is something when considering if the whole Sundial/Moondial thing can lead somewhere.


On another note, I think there are two legendary locations again. You can tell by Solgaleo appearing in front of a bigger shrine, and the sigils are mirrored. Perhaps the twin summits of the big island are version exclusive?

While I know that the new legendaries are obviously representative of the sun and moon, just because those are the game's names doesn't mean that's what their thing is. It's not like Xerneas was the Pokemon that controlled the letter X (not exactly comparable, but you get my point). The sun and moon legendaries may LOOK like the sun and moon (like Xerneas and Yveltal look like X and Y) but that doesn't mean that's what they're supposed to be. They could continue the life/death theme in more gray areas, with something like Solgaleo representing reincarnation or Lunaala representing undead or something. Not super likely, but I also think just a simple "sun and moon god" scenario is meh. Now that I think about it, if that IS the case, these would be the first games where the title actually gives away the legendaries' role/power. I mean, hearing the names Diamond and Pearl, it's not like you instantly would think of time and space.

 

[Mitchman]

While I know that the new legendaries are obviously representative of the sun and moon, just because those are the game's names doesn't mean that's what their thing is. It's not like Xerneas was the Pokemon that controlled the letter X (not exactly comparable, but you get my point). The sun and moon legendaries may LOOK like the sun and moon (like Xerneas and Yveltal look like X and Y) but that doesn't mean that's what they're supposed to be. They could continue the life/death theme in more gray areas, with something like Solgaleo representing reincarnation or Lunaala representing undead or something. Not super likely, but I also think just a simple "sun and moon god" scenario is meh. Now that I think about it, if that IS the case, these would be the first games where the title actually gives away the legendaries' role/power. I mean, hearing the names Diamond and Pearl, it's not like you instantly would think of time and space.

Thelegendaries show up at a templewm with the sun/moon sigils, have a space forehead dome that shows a simplified sigil light up, are shown at day and night,and have the sun/moon promineny on their boxarts. I don't think they are the deities of the sun and the moon, but their power definitely stem from them. I can't see life and death being an extension of this power, as both are scientifically and spiritually are renowned for giving life, and I cannot think of any examples of the moon being tied to death. More importantly, its clear that the moon itself has its own power source or even light source.
Which is why I don't want too many ties to the XY legends. Lore for the sun and moon hould be something higher, on equal footing with the Sinnoh Mythology. The only thing that can tie both together is perhaps the theme of too little is dangerous. Much like eternal life or complete annihilation is way too much and can lead to only destruction, having too little exposure to the sun can lead to the planet freezing or withering away, or having too little exposure to the moon can lead to an imbalance in tides and whatnot. The sun and moon in my opinion have to be the central theme, as it offers soemthing in a way that is perfect for the20th anniversary. It has to do with fire and water, life and death, male and female, balance and imperfection, space and time, day and night, every and any thematic duality shown and represented within the series on a whole, and absolutely makes sense that theu could be the center of everything for this universe.

 

[Esserise]

Representing the Earth instead of Balance would be interesting, but when one side is Life and Death, and the other side Sun and Moon, I strain my mind trying to think how this all fits together. Even as a separate lore branch for both with no correlation between Kalos and Alola, I can't see how a Trio Member can fit in with the lore of another Duo when there is no clear design similarities to tie them together.

In fairness though, who would look at the Spacetime and Lake trios and instantly glean that they are meant to be related through Arceus? Without knowing how they explain it in the games, I don't think one would intuitively draw a connection between time/space/antimatter and knowledge/emotion/willpower, either.

In the same vein as Zygarde not looking much like Solgaleo and Lunaala, Arceus shares considerably more design similarities with the Spacetime trio than it does with the Lake trio.

 

[Mitchman]

In fairness though, who would look at the Spacetime and Lake trios and instantly glean that they are meant to be related through Arceus? Without knowing how they explain it in the games, I don't think one would intuitively draw a connection between time/space/antimatter and knowledge/emotion/willpower, either.

In the same vein as Zygarde not looking much like Solgaleo and Lunaala, Arceus shares considerably more design similarities with the Spacetime trio than it does with the Lake trio.

Bwuh? Arceus both with the lake trio and the creation trio have two distinct design features respectively for each trio. The creation trio has the face markings that resemble a mask, and Arceus' jewels within its golden arcs are the exact same shape and size that are featured on thw foreheads and tails of the lake trio, only differing in color. Meanwhile, zygarde has no distinct features that can even share one link to the celestial duo like Arceu and the Lake Trio. No gold ornamenting, no space forehead, no obvious silouette that resembles either of the two celestial bodies, nor does it feature white as the main body color. Hell, if anything that should show that Zygarde exists on the other side of the coin, and that there should be a trio master as a counterpart to balance.

 

[The Outrage]

Representing the Earth instead of Balance would be interesting, but when one side is Life and Death, and the other side Sun and Moon, I strain my mind trying to think how this all fits together. Even as a separate lore branch for both with no correlation between Kalos and Alola, I can't see how a Trio Member can fit in with the lore of another Duo when there is no clear design similarities to tie them together. I have to articulate my thoughts and organize everything before I give a realg o on analyzing and speculating just how Zygarde can fit into the games, and if Kalos and Alola are perhaps two sidea of the same coin or not. Cause I genuinely think there is something when considering if the whole Sundial/Moondial thing can lead somewhere.


On another note, I think there are two legendary locations again. You can tell by Solgaleo appearing in front of a bigger shrine, and the sigils are mirrored. Perhaps the twin summits of the big island are version exclusive?

Zygarde's still an odd-one-out for Xerneas and Yveltal though. In Gen VI, people talk about "Infinity Energy", which is energy drawn from the life force of living organisms. The game also talks about "Natural Energy", which is an energy source from within the planet that fuels Groudon and Kyogre's primal forms. While the former has been explicitly implicated in Mega Evolution, the latter also seems to be able to create Mega Stones given that releasing the blocked Natural Energy at the Cave of Origin created new Mega Stones. These types of energies are also referenced in Xerneas and Yveltal's abilities. Yveltal is obvious--it uses Oblivion Wing to draw on the life force of living creatures (i.e., the same source that creates Infinity Energy) whereas Xerneas draws on the energy from within the Earth through its Geomancy technique. Zygarde has no such ability to draw on the life force of others or the natural energy within the planet the same way.

Zygarde doesn't have to explicitly fit into Lunaala and Solgaleo's lore either--just the implication that there are Pokemon that embody celestial bodies the same way they embody forces of nature.

Also, can we as a fanbase get rid of the term "Trio Master" because that description was only ever relevant for Ho-Oh. Rayquaza isn't the master of a trio--its part of a trio or the guardian that opposes the other pair of Pokemon. Giratina certainly isn't the master of anything other than its realm, and Arceus is the creator--there's nothing about it governing the Pokemon it created to forge the universe. Kyurem is an empty husk...

 

[Esserise]

Arceus' jewels within its golden arcs are the exact same shape and size that are featured on thw foreheads and tails of the lake trio, only differing in color.

Lots of Pokémon feature random jewels on their bodies, though. It's not so uncommon a feature that one could look at the jewels on Arceus and immediately peg them as being significant. If Arceus were a standalone Pokémon, you would just think that the jewels are there to be decorative. And on top of that, the jewels are the only visual tie between Arceus and Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf, and as you say, they aren't even the same color, for seemingly no particular reason. It's a very thin link and not something that immediately shouts, "There's a connection here!"

At least with Zygarde Complete Forme, people instantly drew a connection from the orange and cyan cores on its chest to Sun and Moon, which, even though it's not confirmed to be significant, makes enough sense because Complete Forme already uses blue and crimson colors to allude to Xerneas and Yveltal. This isn't that much stronger of a link in itself, but my point was simply that Arceus was connected to two trios and the only visual cue regarding its relation to one of them was very subtle.

 

[Icy Wind]

We can already see from Pokemon GO's logo that the Earth also plays in thematically to the new generation's image, but we currently have no Pokemon representing it.

Or they just put the earth as Go's logo because it's supposed to be an app that lets you catch a pokemon anywhere on the globe?

 

[Mitchman]

Zygarde's still an odd-one-out for Xerneas and Yveltal though. In Gen VI, people talk about "Infinity Energy", which is energy drawn from the life force of living organisms. The game also talks about "Natural Energy", which is an energy source from within the planet that fuels Groudon and Kyogre's primal forms. While the former has been explicitly implicated in Mega Evolution, the latter also seems to be able to create Mega Stones given that releasing the blocked Natural Energy at the Cave of Origin created new Mega Stones. These types of energies are also referenced in Xerneas and Yveltal's abilities. Yveltal is obvious--it uses Oblivion Wing to draw on the life force of living creatures (i.e., the same source that creates Infinity Energy) whereas Xerneas draws on the energy from within the Earth through its Geomancy technique. Zygarde has no such ability to draw on the life force of others or the natural energy within the planet the same way.

Zygarde doesn't have to explicitly fit into Lunaala and Solgaleo's lore either--just the implication that there are Pokemon that embody celestial bodies the same way they embody forces of nature.

Also, can we as a fanbase get rid of the term "Trio Master" because that description was only ever relevant for Ho-Oh. Rayquaza isn't the master of a trio--its part of a trio or the guardian that opposes the other pair of Pokemon. Giratina certainly isn't the master of anything other than its realm, and Arceus is the creator--there's nothing about it governing the Pokemon it created to forge the universe. Kyurem is an empty husk...

I'll give you the point about about trio masters, perhaps trio pacifist would be a better term? Anyway, Zygarde regarding infinity and/or natural energy is a strange case. Right now we only have the Anime to go off of, which is a dubious source at best,and it can go whichever way fits someones ideas. On one hand its implied Zygarde and its cores kind of have a connection with one of the energy sources. On the other hand, you can see one of the cells drawing sunlight for power. With how much Pokemon rely on sunlight and moonlight for an energy source, if Zygarde's depiction in the Anime turns out to be accurate, then it representing the Earth might make ties to Solgaleo and Lunaala inevitable. Its not the first time I'm wondering this, but Mega Evolution might be one side of a coin, with a new similar evolution method being the other side, the moon side. Infinity energy could be a cosmic source, which is also implied with the Mega Stones in XY activating from the Sundial. Now if the Moon' energy is different or the same is an entirely different matter, but it does fit with Zygarde. As the Earth Personified and the balance between forces, it would make sense that it has powers over life and death, but also can manipulate the powers of the Sun and Moon for its own benefit. In a way there is a balance in that, with it giving by using its stored power to protect itself, but gains by restoring its powers to use them. This in turn can be spun into the whole alchemy side that is implied with experimentation of the various energy sources, by being Pokemon's prime example of equivalent exchange.

Lots of Pokémon feature random jewels on their bodies, though. It's not so uncommon a feature that one could look at the jewels on Arceus and immediately peg them as being significant. If Arceus were a standalone Pokémon, you would just think that the jewels are there to be decorative. And on top of that, the jewels are the only visual tie between Arceus and Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf, and as you say, they aren't even the same color, for seemingly no particular reason. It's a very thin link and not something that immediately shouts, "There's a connection here!"

At least with Zygarde Complete Forme, people instantly drew a connection from the orange and cyan cores on its chest to Sun and Moon, which, even though it's not confirmed to be significant, makes enough sense because Complete Forme already uses blue and crimson colors to allude to Xerneas and Yveltal. This isn't that much stronger of a link in itself, but my point was simply that Arceus was connected to two trios and the only visual cue regarding its relation to one of them was very subtle.

Most creation myths imply that the universe was spat out by the gods, or in this case Arceus, which is why the mouthguards are similar, meanwhile creating life with its 1000 arms could refer to the golden arcs, so the jewela being the same is not a stretch, as life kinda required the 3 powers the lake trio have power over. Its subtle design principles.

 

[Jolty94]

I really don't see a new type this gen whatsoever, it would become tiresome and annoying imo. I don't want retyping to happen again, at least for another 10 years (lol). With the introduction of Fairy last gen, we're at a solid place regarding typing, apart from Ice needing a few buffs (imo).

I highly doubt 'Cosmic' will become a thing, especially for the S/M legends. That argument then leads to Palkia/Dialga and a few others to retyping, which I would not be cool with tbh. Just leave the typing as it is please GF. They barely managed to make Fairy's inclusion make sense after all these years, adding 'Cosmic', especially at this point in time just to justify possible typing speculation, would be super unnecessary.

 

[The Outrage]

I'll give you the point about about trio masters, perhaps trio pacifist would be a better term? Anyway, Zygarde regarding infinity and/or natural energy is a strange case. Right now we only have the Anime to go off of, which is a dubious source at best,and it can go whichever way fits someones ideas. On one hand its implied Zygarde and its cores kind of have a connection with one of the energy sources. On the other hand, you can see one of the cells drawing sunlight for power. With how much Pokemon rely on sunlight and moonlight for an energy source, if Zygarde's depiction in the Anime turns out to be accurate, then it representing the Earth might make ties to Solgaleo and Lunaala inevitable. Its not the first time I'm wondering this, but Mega Evolution might be one side of a coin, with a new similar evolution method being the other side, the moon side. Infinity energy could be a cosmic source, which is also implied with the Mega Stones in XY activating from the Sundial. Now if the Moon' energy is different or the same is an entirely different matter, but it does fit with Zygarde. As the Earth Personified and the balance between forces, it would make sense that it has powers over life and death, but also can manipulate the powers of the Sun and Moon for its own benefit. In a way there is a balance in that, with it giving by using its stored power to protect itself, but gains by restoring its powers to use them. This in turn can be spun into the whole alchemy side that is implied with experimentation of the various energy sources, by being Pokemon's prime example of equivalent exchange.

If we go back to the idea that "Infinity Energy" is the life energy of living creatures and "Natural Energy" is the energy of the planet, both the Sun and Moon play an important role in both. Animals generate energy from what they eat, and plants generate energy from photosynthesis--so all "life energy" would be drawn from the Sun. In contrast, if "Natural energy" is generated from the Earth, than that is analogous to the energy that drives plate tectonics, which both the Sun and Moon contribute to (but more-so attributed to the Moon).

I'm hoping this is the case because its drawing parallels to Full Metal Alchemist and drawing alchemic energy from human lives vs plate tectonics

Back to the point you're making though--you're still thinking way too much in terms of "Trio Masters". Why does Complete Zygarde need to pacify anything? Complete Zygarde is simply another legendary that represents a celestial body (in this case the Earth). Marshadow would be another one.

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

Also, can we as a fanbase get rid of the term "Trio Master" because that description was only ever relevant for Ho-Oh. Rayquaza isn't the master of a trio--its part of a trio or the guardian that opposes the other pair of Pokemon. Giratina certainly isn't the master of anything other than its realm, and Arceus is the creator--there's nothing about it governing the Pokemon it created to forge the universe. Kyurem is an empty husk...

Trio masters don't need to explicitly be the one controlling the trio, it just needs to have some explicit superiority directly over the rest (or the entire in the case of an external trio master like Rayquaza or Lugia)
Ho-Oh isn't the trio master, Lugia is, it can calm the birds. Rayquaza is the master of its trio as it has the power to stop the fighting of Groudon and Kyogre. Giratina isn't the trio master, Arcues is, he created them to embody time/space/antimatter. Zygarde is speculated as trio master because it will explicitly stop Xerneas and Yveltal should they go nuts with its aura breaking powers. Kyurem is a little sketchy though, there's nothing to imply any inherent superiority, except maybe that it has to be the base for the fusions.

 

[Esserise]

Ho-Oh isn't the trio master

It is of Raikou, Entei, and Suicune

Kyurem is a little sketchy though, there's nothing to imply any inherent superiority, except maybe that it has to be the base for the fusions.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I would hesitate to even classify the Tao Dragons as a typical "trio." Technically speaking, they're all just fragments of a greater Kyurem. Reshiram and Zekrom are just... ingredients, and the Kyurem husk is the bowl to mix them in. And as far as superiority goes, Kyurem on its own is actually weaker than both Reshiram and Zekrom.

 

[TouyaShiro]

And as far as superiority goes, Kyurem on its own is actually weaker than both Reshiram and Zekrom.

Ironically enough, a trait shared with Zygarde (though, unless Complete is seen in the games, is arguably an even worse case because it only has 600 total BST).

This brings up a rather weird topic... Would you guys rather have an external trio master, or a trio master within? Here's where speculation becomes rife for Sun & Moon in particular.