Generation VII Legendary Pokemon Discussion

[Esserise]

Ironically enough, a trait shared with Zygarde (though, unless Complete is seen in the games, is arguably an even worse case because it only has 600 total BST).

Huh, you know, it now occurs to me that I haven't really given any thought as to what Zygarde Complete Forme's BST would be. It's got to be higher that Xerneas/Yveltal's, no? 700 seems reasonable and parallels the boost given by Mega Evolution/Primal Reversion, although heaven forbid if Xerneas/Yveltal ever get power boosts and put Zygarde back in the dog(/snake/king)house.

This brings up a rather weird topic... Would you guys rather have an external trio master, or a trio master within? Here's where speculation becomes rife for Sun & Moon in particular.

Generally, I would prefer external, but I am rather liking the idea of Zygarde being the master of two duos, the Mortality duo and the "Celestial" duo. I don't know exactly how Marshadow, if indeed it is a real thing, would factor into that, though.

Or, perhaps as a reversal - Zygarde is the master of Xerneas and Yveltal, but the "Celestial" duo influences Zygarde (just as the sun and the moon influence Earth). Marshadow, then, could have an interesting parallel relationship with Zygarde (being the Mars/"twin" of Zygarde's Earth, and perhaps opposing Zygarde's Order with War, as Mars is the Roman god of war), or it could be a separate thing that only relates to Solgaleo and Lunaala. There are a couple of ways to play this.

 

[Zweilous]

If Zygarde had to have a relationship with the Celestial duo, I'd prefer the latter situation over the former. What I'd like to see with the Celestial duo is that their story is developed and fleshed out without having to rely too much on previous regions, and having their connection to Zygarde be more restricted I feel would allow more flexibility in that regard. Plus, having the trio interact only by their 'leader' I feel would be a more interesting dynamic since we rarely have legendaries interact with each other outside of their respective groups (not counting the anime), and having connections like that I feel would flesh out the world a bit more.

 

[Mitchman]

Huh, you know, it now occurs to me that I haven't really given any thought as to what Zygarde Complete Forme's BST would be. It's got to be higher that Xerneas/Yveltal's, no? 700 seems reasonable and parallels the boost given by Mega Evolution/Primal Reversion, although heaven forbid if Xerneas/Yveltal ever get power boosts and put Zygarde back in the dog(/snake/king)house.



Generally, I would prefer external, but I am rather liking the idea of Zygarde being the master of two duos, the Mortality duo and the "Celestial" duo. I don't know exactly how Marshadow, if indeed it is a real thing, would factor into that, though.

Or, perhaps as a reversal - Zygarde is the master of Xerneas and Yveltal, but the "Celestial" duo influences Zygarde (just as the sun and the moon influence Earth). Marshadow, then, could have an interesting parallel relationship with Zygarde (being the Mars/"twin" of Zygarde's Earth, and perhaps opposing Zygarde's Order with War, as Mars is the Roman god of war), or it could be a separate thing that only relates to Solgaleo and Lunaala. There are a couple of ways to play this.

That's why I kind of want a trio within gen 7. People look at the gen 6 Pokemon and get Norse Mythology, but I am starting to wonder if its a combination of Norse and the Greco-Roman Pantheon.
Xerneas is Artemis
Yveltal is Hades
Zygarde is Maia
Solgaleo is Apollo
Lunaala is Diana
Marshadow is well, Mars


While one role is played twice, it kind of fits and has a good balance. With Zygarde as Mother of the Earth you have its role of peace, where as Mars is that of chaos. Obe is balance and order, and the other is imbalance and chaos.

 

[Falconwing]

Yveltal is Hades

They don't really match up. Hades is not destructive. If you're looking for a different mythology I suggest Hinduism. Yveltal shares traits with Shiva.

 

[Esserise]

They don't really match up. Hades is not destructive. If you're looking for a different mythology I suggest Hinduism. Yveltal shares traits with Shiva.

I don't think Yveltal is really destructive either, though. I mean yeah it's the "Destruction Pokémon," but we all know that that's just a way to avoid saying "Death Pokémon." As far as its role in nature goes, it's just a part of the life cycle. Things are born, and then in time, they die. Yveltal represents that. It is a vessel into which life energy is taken, whereas Xerneas is a vessel that carries and distributes life energy.

We obviously would perceive Yveltal's absorption as a negative act, but that's because we are self-preserving, conscious beings that have developed a system of morality. In nature, Yveltal wouldn't be considered a bad thing, or a good thing - just a thing.

 

[Zweilous]

Between the two, I'd definitely say Yveltal shares more traits with Shiva then it does Hades. Hades is involved with the souls of the dead, but he doesn't have a direct role in their demise, his role is more just holding them within the Underworld. He also doesn't have a "balance" in the sense of a major deity giving life being involved with him as doesn't really involve himself in any other god's business, he just keeps to himself and maintains the Underworld. Shiva, in terms of his role, is supposed to be a part of a cycle of life and death, which makes him more an interactive part of that function in the world rather then a passive one. That role fits with Yveltal more since, as said above, it's more of the natural occurrence of death and destruction that is balanced out by Xerneas, so it ends up being a part of a cycle in that sense. So in that sense, I'd say Shiva has more of a claim to be Yveltal representation, but we're working off of limited data in that regard for the latter and more lore could tip the scales in another deity's favor.

 

[Lufenium]

Yveltal reminds me more of Thanatos than Hades.

 

[RedGoldRubyDiamondBlackX]

That's why I kind of want a trio within gen 7. People look at the gen 6 Pokemon and get Norse Mythology, but I am starting to wonder if its a combination of Norse and the Greco-Roman Pantheon.
Xerneas is Artemis
Yveltal is Hades
Zygarde is Maia
Solgaleo is Apollo
Lunaala is Diana
Marshadow is well, Mars


While one role is played twice, it kind of fits and has a good balance. With Zygarde as Mother of the Earth you have its role of peace, where as Mars is that of chaos. Obe is balance and order, and the other is imbalance and chaos.

Wait, aren't Artemis and Diana the same thing without counting one is Greek and one is Roman?
EDIT: Oh, ok, ok, my bad, I didn't read it all. Well, you have a point. It is interesting to see the parallels.

 

[Esserise]

Yveltal reminds me more of Thanatos than Hades.

I actually find it a bit odd that we are likening the Kalos Legendaries to Greek or Hindu deities, when generally the fandom has been dead-set on comparing them to Norse figures ever since their reveal (and even more so once Zygarde was first found).

Personally, I'm still not even sure as to whether or not I find the Norse theory to be all that compelling.

 

[Kevzo8]

New commercial for Sun and Moon, just compressed from the original trailer, but a teeny bit of new shot, and a very beautiful one as well, which we could speculate about.

Spoiler

Lunaala - Psychic type confirmed?

What will the second type be then? I really hope it'd be something unique.

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

I actually find it a bit odd that we are likening the Kalos Legendaries to Greek or Hindu deities, when generally the fandom has been dead-set on comparing them to Norse figures ever since their reveal (and even more so once Zygarde was first found).

Personally, I'm still not even sure as to whether or not I find the Norse theory to be all that compelling.

Please explain, my knowledge of Norse Mythology is nowhere near my knowledge of Greco-Roman, but how are those three Norse related?

New commercial for Sun and Moon, just compressed from the original trailer, but a teeny bit of new shot, and a very beautiful one as well, which we could speculate about.

Spoiler

Lunaala - Psychic type confirmed?

What will the second type be then? I really hope it'd be something unique.

I still stand by my Dark or Fairy Typing

 

[Esserise]

Please explain, my knowledge of Norse Mythology is nowhere near my knowledge of Greco-Roman, but how are those three Norse related?

Many fans believe that they are based on three creatures that live within Yggdrasil, the tree that connects the nine worlds in Norse mythology. Xerneas is supposedly based on the four stags that live near the center, while Yveltal is compared to the eagle that sits at the top of Yggdrasil, and Zygarde is the wyrm that lies at the bottom of the tree and gnaws on its roots.

From there, people theorize that Zygarde's three Percent Formes are based on Loki's three children - Fenrir (a wolf), Jörmungandr (a serpent which coils around the world), and Hel (the woman that presides over the, well, not exactly underworld, but that's a common simplification).

Maybe somebody who puts more stock in the idea can present it better than I can. But personally, it's not that the idea is *un*convincing, but it feels to me as though there is something missing from it; something that would bring it together more firmly.

I don't think it is unlikely that they could have simply looked for animals that were shaped like an X, Y, and Z, and came upon the fairly logical conclusions of a deer, a vulture, and a snake. Especially since deer are commonly seen as symbols of life and fertility, while vultures feed on the dead. Snakes may not immediately call to mind the idea of "order," but then I would point out that the snake is only 50% of Zygarde - it's true form looks very much like a king, and the connection there is obvious. Plus, I would argue that Zygarde's 50% Forme has a very imposing posture similar to that of a king cobra. I would be a little stumped about 10% Forme, though. It seems to be some kind of doberman, but I can't think of any obvious connection between that and "order." Maybe because guard dogs are tasked with maintaining "order" in a sense and protecting their masters?

 

[laki]

Many fans believe that they are based on three creatures that live within Yggdrasil, the tree that connects the nine worlds in Norse mythology. Xerneas is supposedly based on the four stags that live near the center, while Yveltal is compared to the eagle that sits at the top of Yggdrasil, and Zygarde is the wyrm that lies at the bottom of the tree and gnaws on its roots.

From there, people theorize that Zygarde's three Percent Formes are based on Loki's three children - Fenrir (a wolf), Jörmungandr (a serpent which coils around the world), and Hel (the woman that presides over the, well, not exactly underworld, but that's a common simplification).

Maybe somebody who puts more stock in the idea can present it better than I can. But personally, it's not that the idea is *un*convincing, but it feels to me as though there is something missing from it; something that would bring it together more firmly.

I don't think it is unlikely that they could have simply looked for animals that were shaped like an X, Y, and Z, and came upon the fairly logical conclusions of a deer, a vulture, and a snake. Especially since deer are commonly seen as symbols of life and fertility, while vultures feed on the dead. Snakes may not immediately call to mind the idea of "order," but then I would point out that the snake is only 50% of Zygarde - it's true form looks very much like a king, and the connection there is obvious. Plus, I would argue that Zygarde's 50% Forme has a very imposing posture similar to that of a king cobra. I would be a little stumped about 10% Forme, though. It seems to be some kind of doberman, but I can't think of any obvious connection between that and "order." Maybe because guard dogs are tasked with maintaining "order" in a sense and protecting their masters?

I think very likely that the XY legendaries are based of norse mythology. I think it would be too big of a coincidence, if they chose to base the legendaries of a stag, an eagle, and a snake, if they weren't thinking of the creatures of Yggdrasil.

Also Xerneas has 4 sets of antlers which fits very well with the fact that there are four stags.

 

[Falconwing]

New commercial for Sun and Moon, just compressed from the original trailer, but a teeny bit of new shot, and a very beautiful one as well, which we could speculate about.

Spoiler

Lunaala - Psychic type confirmed?

What will the second type be then? I really hope it'd be something unique.

Calling it! Psychic/fairy or Psychic/dark!

 

[Jolty94]

I am to assume people are making the connection to Psychic for the Bat legendary because of TCG energy cards that represent Psychic? Aha...

I'm still sticking with Dark/Fairy or Ghost/Fairy at this point.

 

[Zygardereign]

Yeah, I'd like to see original and unique type combos for these legendaries, so either Dark/Fairy or Ghost/Fairy for "Lunaala" is fine for me. Though I'm really hoping for Fire/Grass for "Solgaleo".
I originally thought we were going to fight these legendaries on the actual sun or moon, but looking at those shrines for the S/M symbols, can it be on a "Niihau inspired" island, since it's nicknamed "The forbidden Isle?" I want to see which island is appropiate for these legends to be in

 

[Jolty94]

I just feel Dark is very plausible, considering the actual Moon's orbit around the Earth only ever shows us one side. The other side of the moon is commonly referred to as 'the dark side' ... I know Dark type is 'Evil' in Japanese, but I'm willing to take a bet that Dark (imo) will at least be one of the typings. I obviously say Dark/Fairy because of the Fairy types already obvious association with the Moon.

 

[Zweilous]

Many fans believe that they are based on three creatures that live within Yggdrasil, the tree that connects the nine worlds in Norse mythology. Xerneas is supposedly based on the four stags that live near the center, while Yveltal is compared to the eagle that sits at the top of Yggdrasil, and Zygarde is the wyrm that lies at the bottom of the tree and gnaws on its roots.

From there, people theorize that Zygarde's three Percent Formes are based on Loki's three children - Fenrir (a wolf), Jörmungandr (a serpent which coils around the world), and Hel (the woman that presides over the, well, not exactly underworld, but that's a common simplification).

Maybe somebody who puts more stock in the idea can present it better than I can. But personally, it's not that the idea is *un*convincing, but it feels to me as though there is something missing from it; something that would bring it together more firmly.

I don't think it is unlikely that they could have simply looked for animals that were shaped like an X, Y, and Z, and came upon the fairly logical conclusions of a deer, a vulture, and a snake. Especially since deer are commonly seen as symbols of life and fertility, while vultures feed on the dead. Snakes may not immediately call to mind the idea of "order," but then I would point out that the snake is only 50% of Zygarde - it's true form looks very much like a king, and the connection there is obvious. Plus, I would argue that Zygarde's 50% Forme has a very imposing posture similar to that of a king cobra. I would be a little stumped about 10% Forme, though. It seems to be some kind of doberman, but I can't think of any obvious connection between that and "order." Maybe because guard dogs are tasked with maintaining "order" in a sense and protecting their masters?

Whiles snakes aren't really associated with order (though there are a couple examples like Ananta Shesha's association with Vishnu), they are typically associated with cyclicality, with Ouroboros being the most well known example of that. So along with snakes making a good "Z" animal, it works well as something that's supposed to represent the cycle of life and death, which can be seen as the "order" aspect of that relationship.

Zygarde's 10% form also stumps me a bit as it kind of disassociated from the other forms, but to continue off of what you said, it could be a reference to hellhounds that guard the afterlife/hunt for wayward spirits as those can be seen as an agent of order in the preservation of the cycle. Those are a common trait in different mythologies, so it wouldn't be farfetch'd to believe that they took inspiration from that idea.

New commercial for Sun and Moon, just compressed from the original trailer, but a teeny bit of new shot, and a very beautiful one as well, which we could speculate about.

Spoiler

Lunaala - Psychic type confirmed?

What will the second type be then? I really hope it'd be something unique.

That's an interesting observation. Psychic is definitely a possibility since "third eyes" are typically associated with the typing, but it could also be Ghost since Mega Gengar has a third eye itself.

 

[SlavSobble]

A wild thought appears!

What does everyone think of Lunaala's name being rendered as Luna'ala? It makes the pronunciation of its name a little bit clearer, and the Hawaiian language d0es make use of a specialised kind of apostrophe called the 'okina in many words and names, like in Hawai'i, O'ahu and Ni'ihau, so writing it as Luna'ala would make it seem more "Hawaiian".

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

A wild thought appears!

What does everyone think of Lunaala's name being rendered as Luna'ala? It makes the pronunciation of its name a little bit clearer, and the Hawaiian language d0es make use of a specialised kind of apostrophe called the 'okina in many words and names, like in Hawai'i, O'ahu and Ni'ihau, so writing it as Luna'ala would make it seem more "Hawaiian".

After trying out both ways a few times, I support this possibility, it just sounds... Better.