Speculation Is Generation VI really done?

[Hidden Mew]

Zygarde is different. It is the third legendary pokemon of gen 6. Creating forms for a legendary and then not put in a game is just insulting. However Sun and Moon may feature the forms and I hope they do. One thing we can agree on is that gen 6 is done.

No, it is not insulting. Disappointing perhaps for some, but not insulting. The fact that it's a Legendary Pokemon means nothing. Am I supposed to feel insulted that we never got a baby Lugia despite how they showed one in the original series? Yes, I know that's not exactly the same thing as Zygarde multiple forms, but that was the best example I could think of at the moment. I think that you're making a mountain out of a molehill if you really think not getting forms in the main series of games insulting. You've said over and over again all of your opinions about Zygarde, including hoping that they'll be featured in Sun/Moon. I don't think you need to keep doing that. I'm so tired of hearing about Zygarde this and Zygarde that every single day and it's one of the main reasons why I hope that the forms aren't included in Sun/Moon. It is not the end of the world if they end up being anime exclusive forms, or at least not included outside of the main series of games.

 

[Bolt Strike]

No, that's not trolling. I think that you're painting Game Freak as if they deliberately created Zygarde for the primary purpose to trick fans into thinking that a Z game was going to happen, which is just one step below making them out to be mustache twirling villains. It just sounds ridiculous.

You're reading too much into what I'm saying then. Zygarde in and of itself likely wasn't designed to trick people into believing Z was real. But the way it's been presented and promoted was. Answer me this, was it really necessary to give it the name Zygarde, which fits Xerneas and Yveltal's naming scheme? Was it really necessary to give it moves and abilities that counter Xerneas/Yveltal's? Was it really necessary to give it an anime arc titled XYZ? Why would they deliberately make these decisions if they didn't want to get our hopes up for Z? Why couldn't they have just made it a random legendary with no connections to Xerneas/Yveltal at all? That's what's trolling, not Zygarde's inherent existence.

Yes, there were patterns and yes, a Zygarde focus game made sense with said pattern, along with how it was promoted since the last Mega Evolution special. However, patterns can easily be broken. Everyone expected a Gray version back in the fifth generation because of the same patterns and we got B2/W2 instead. Granted, the situation here is different with going straight to a new generation without any kind of continuation, but again, that just shows that patterns can be broken.

The difference between BW2 and this is that there were no explicit hints towards Kyurem getting a singular form, people made the assumption purely based on past generations and not the actual evidence in the game. So when we found out that Kyurem had two forms and not one, it was purely the fans' fault for drawing conclusions that weren't there. But with Zygarde, there were plenty of hints pointing towards it having an explicit connection with Xerneas and Yveltal only to completely pass it over. So that actually was a misdirect.

Zygarde did bring the expectation that it would be a game mascot, but that's the point. It was all about fan expectations, assumptions and going off of patterns. It has nothing to do with actual facts, which is why I don't really feel too sympathetic towards those who are upset about the lack of Z. Zygarde's existence is not the same thing as an actual game announcement. It was a reasonable assumption to make, but fans just kept calling Z as if it was definitely going to happen. Just because Zygarde fits the pattern of other third Legendary Pokemon and they decided to move onto the next generation instead of some kind of direct Kalos continuation does not mean that they're trolling. You can be upset or annoyed about the decision and that's perfectly understandable, but that's really not the same thing as Game Freak trolling the fanbase. If they went through the hassle of creating Zygarde, giving it different forms and having it be the main focus of an arc in the anime with the purpose to trick fans into assuming Z was going to happen, then that just sounds silly and nonsensical.

How many times do I have to say it, you don't need explicit confirmation to troll people. All you need to do is present evidence that leads them to a false conclusion. And that's exactly what they did in this scenario, they gave us a legendary Pokemon with a name scheme fitting the mascots and moves and abilities that counter the other two, only to completely ignore it and move on. They gave us factual evidence that led to a false conclusion, which is trolling.

It mostly comes off as a way for you to just find a new way to complain about Zygarde more than anything else. It's really not trolling. Being upset that the forms aren't in the games is understandable, but calling it trolling is just ridiculous. You might as well throw a fit over every anime exclusive form that isn't available in the main series games and call them trolls for doing so too. Zygarde forms aren't the only Pokemon to debut in the series before they appear in a game. Even if they are anime exclusive, I just don't see the issue. It's not the end of the world if the high and mighty Zygarde doesn't have its precious forms available in the games.

Again, Zygarde isn't anime exclusive. It's been in several spinoff games so far. And as far as I can remember, there's been no Pokemon or form that has appeared in multiple different mediums that hasn't appeared in the games. So it's not really comparable to things like the Baby Lugia, which has only ever appeared in the anime and nothing else.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Zygarde in and of itself likely wasn't designed to trick people into believing Z was real. But the way it's been presented and promoted was.

Because you took it that way. That's basically all I have to say about it because poor ol' Hidden Mew has to echo it too many times. Sure, the anime staff can promote the hell out of it and give so much emphasis, and we'd question why, but unless they deliberately led us on purpose by using non-game media as an excuse, Game Freak themselves did not troll anyone with Zygarde's new formes unless we have solid proof that it was a setup from the beginning (a la Ed Boon trolling basically the entire PC userbase of Mortal Kombat X). We can't be sure that Zygarde is truly dead or alive at this point in time, and Masuda didn't comment when asked about it. Something's up, but we don't know what yet.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Because you took it that way. That's basically all I have to say about it because poor ol' Hidden Mew has to echo it too many times. Sure, the anime staff can promote the hell out of it and give so much emphasis, and we'd question why, but unless they deliberately led us on purpose by using non-game media as an excuse, Game Freak themselves did not troll anyone with Zygarde's new formes unless we have solid proof that it was a setup from the beginning (a la Ed Boon trolling basically the entire PC userbase of Mortal Kombat X). We can't be sure that Zygarde is truly dead or alive at this point in time, and Masuda didn't comment when asked about it. Something's up, but we don't know what yet.

Again, you don't need to have explicit proof for it to be trolling. Simply convincing people of a false conclusion is enough. So the explicit connections that Game Freak drew between Zygarde and Xerneas/Yveltal are enough for it to be trolling.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Simply convincing people of a false conclusion is enough.

It was their fault (and yours) for actually taking that sign as something meaningful when nothing was said about it that actually confirmed or denied the game's existence. You could be teased for years on a potential new thing from a franchise you like, only for them not to follow up on it at all for some reason (whether it was their fault or not) or that it turned out to be something completely different. I'm sorry to bring up the Zelda example here, but Wind Waker's reveal is a prime example of why we shouldn't ever trust material that isn't an explicit trailer for a specific game. (That Spaceworld demo and the subsequent reactions to Wind Waker are the reason Twilight Princess exists...)

So the explicit connections that Game Freak drew between Zygarde and Xerneas/Yveltal are enough for it to be trolling.

Hold on now, what explicit connections? All that exists between Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde is >implying as it has a counterpart ability that reverses the other two's own, and learnset patterns, and even in the anime it's merely said that Complete Forme's power exceeds Xerneas and Yveltal. Nothing's been said about it officially being the third of a trio just yet, despite the obvious parallels.

I will say it once more: The fans were projecting their expectations on to something that was, ultimately, never meant to be. I will admit, doing so helped you guys to pass the time before the true announcement was revealed, and we're still all confused as to why they did it this way, but we'll find out the answers to that in due time.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Hold on now, what explicit connections? All that exists between Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde is >implying as it has a counterpart ability that reverses the other two's own, and learnset patterns, and even in the anime it's merely said that Complete Forme's power exceeds Xerneas and Yveltal. Nothing's been said about it officially being the third of a trio just yet, despite the obvious parallels.

I will say it once more: The fans were projecting their expectations on to something that was, ultimately, never meant to be. I will admit, doing so helped you guys to pass the time before the true announcement was revealed, and we're still all confused as to why they did it this way, but we'll find out the answers to that in due time.

Now you're just being overly technical, this isn't freaking law school. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. They don't need to say anything official, the connections speak for themselves, and they don't just make those connections for no reason.

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

Honestly at this rate, I hope Zygarde's formes aren't even in S/M. I hope they are dropped indefinitely and really are a product of the anime, just to prove to people that you can't always take something at face value. That and because I'm also getting real sick of hearing about Zygarde and its ugly formes day by day.

I'm not even sure if Zygarde's formes is even possible to replicate in the games anyway given the cores and cells. Unless you're supposed to take Zygarde to an NPC to change its formes (like Deoxys), then I don't see how it'll be possible.

 

[TouyaShiro]

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. They don't need to say anything official, the connections speak for themselves, and they don't just make those connections for no reason.

Said everyone who expected Pokémon Gray back in Generation V. Remember the God Stone? When B2W2 came around, the item that took its place in the game's index was the DNA Splicers.

My point is that we're dealing with the hard facts, not the assumptions placed on to the lore on the basis of supposed patterns, and until it's said otherwise, we don't have the final word on saying whether or not those connections are official. It's like trying to speculate on the timeline placement of games released after Hyrule Historia - while there are nods here and there that are placed in each game that tie them in to the timeline, we're left to our imagination to speculate on their static place in the timeline (which they themselves have said is left open and subject to change as they release more titles). Just because it's >implying doesn't mean it's fully confirmed unless official word says so, and it should not have been taken as such in hindsight.

I'll still be waiting on the sidelines hoping to receive an answer as to why we had this happen the way that it did. I'll make judgements then.

... In all honesty I should have dropped this long before the discussion got to this point - we may yet turn this into another "No Pokémon Z?" situation.

I'm not even sure if Zygarde's formes is even possible to replicate in the games anyway given the cores and cells. Unless you're supposed to take Zygarde to an NPC to change its formes (like Deoxys), then I don't see how it'll be possible.

You answered it yourself, that'd be the simplest way to do it if they didn't want to incorporate the cells gimmick.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Honestly at this rate, I hope Zygarde's formes aren't even in S/M. I hope they are dropped indefinitely and really are a product of the anime, just to prove to people that you can't always take something at face value. That and because I'm also getting real sick of hearing about Zygarde and its ugly formes day by day.

I'm not even sure if Zygarde's formes is even possible to replicate in the games anyway given the cores and cells. Unless you're supposed to take Zygarde to an NPC to change its formes (like Deoxys), then I don't see how it'll be possible.

Trust me. I'm right there with you. I like the designs for the forums, but I am so darn sick of this conversation. It almost makes me want to hate Zygarde because of these kind of discussions and hearing the same old complaint about it every single day, but that's just projecting my feelings of this debate on it. I'd be incredibly happy if the Zygarde forms aren't even in Sun/Moon at this point. I don't even care about what story potential it could have at this point. Focus on new content and forget about the sixth generation for all I care. People are probably going to complain either way, which is always a tricky situation, but I'd rather have them focus on new content than trying to appeal to the annoyingly loud minority of people who are throwing fits over not getting the Z game they imagined for years, which probably wouldn't have lived up to the high expectations some people have had for it either.

Because TouyaShiro already covered these points quite well and I don't want to keep getting into paragraph long discussions on this topic, even though that will probably happen in future unfortunately, I'll just say that the evidence for Game Freak's "trolling" is still darn weak. Fans chose to look at the promotion and patterns and considered that the same thing as actual confirmation for a Z game. I'd put way more blame on fans who think like that than on Game Freak or how the anime promoted Zygarde in this case. That's basically calling for a game based off assumptions and patterns, calling foul when Game Freak does something different and then throwing a fit about it. It's understandable to be upset if you really wanted a Z or some kind of Kalos continuation, but going as far to actually claim that they were deliberately trolling fans with putting something in their faces to make them assume something was going to happen is just plain nonsensical. You can't take assumptions and patterns and say that they're facts, regardless of how reasonable they are, and constantly arguing otherwise is also pretty ridiculous.

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

You answered it yourself, that'd be the simplest way to do it if they didn't want to incorporate the cells gimmick.

Except that people would complain that taking Zygarde to a NPC/object is "unfaithful" to how the formes were portrayed in other media, that "what is the point of introducing the cores and cells if you just take Zygarde to a NPC?"

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Sun and Moon will suck if the forms aren't in it. Those forms are too important to be left and I believe that anyone says any different is wrong. If Game Freak leaves out the forms, then they clearly don't care about the fans and should keep the games to themselves. I am not buying games that are not having the forms of Zygarde. Gen 6 didn't have them so Gen 7 should otherwise Game Freak did trolled us. I am tired of hearing people say that the forms won't be in the games or be happy that they won't. I was going to stop talking about this but when people start saying that the forms are not going to be in Sun and Moon then that is where I draw the line.

 

[Fig]

As I recall, you were going to stop talking about this because you were told to stop talking about this. By me.

I don't recall an "unless people say they don't want Zygarde in" exception.

1)They can, in fact, say they don't want Zygarde in.
2)That is NOT a reason for you to repost the same argument yet again

 

[EmpoleonProd]

I think SM will return to Kalos or at least portions of it as GSC/HGSS did to Kanto, becoming sequels taking place three years after RBY/FRLG. Additionally, I think it would downright sick for Gamefreak to show us a prelude to the Battle Frontier and have it remain as a joke and never give it to us (I'm STILL salty about its exclusion from ORAS), so I think we'll be able to visit the Battle Frontier, and before anyone says "that means we'd have to have the ability to visit Hoenn as well as Kalos and the new region so that can't happen", remember the Sevii Islands from FRLG and the secret island 8 and 9? Well, you could visit Navel Rock and Birth Island in Emerald via events, so you could visit the Sevii Islands on those games, that didn't necessitate the ability to visit the rest of them plus Kanto, so they could make it so the Battle Frontier is the only part of Hoenn that's visitable and the rest of that is excluded for obvious reasons being that ORAS are still the newest games until SM come out. Also, HGSS copied the design of Platinum's Frontier and just stuck it in another location so something like that could happen too.

Tl;dr, SM is to XY as GSC is to RBY, also, you should hopefully be able to visit the Battle Frontier that was hinted at in ORAS.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

As I recall, you were going to stop talking about this because you were told to stop talking about this. By me.

I don't recall an "unless people say they don't want Zygarde in" exception.

1)They can, in fact, say they don't want Zygarde in.
2)That is NOT a reason for you to repost the same argument yet again

Alright. I admit I went overboard. I stick on topic. When Magearna was released, it was a sign of gen 7. When Sun and Moon were announcement, that made gen 7 even more likely so I do think gen 6 is done.

 

[Fig]

I highly doubt that., Adding a whole second region to the game is something they haven't done since GS, and for obvious reason - it takes a lot of work to program a whole second region.

We may revisit specific locations from the old regions, maybe, but at that point I'd rather they just let us visit new locations in the new region.

Now you're just being overly technical, this isn't freaking law school. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. They don't need to say anything official, the connections speak for themselves, and they don't just make those connections for no reason.

So a robot shaped like a human, that talk like a human, is a human?

The proper phrasing of that line of thinking is "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck." Probably, meaning we don't know for sure that it is ; meaning that we accept we can still be proven wrong about it. Funny how you chose to skip a word that rather changes the sense of the sentence, isn't it?

For example, we could be proven wrong about Zygarde being the third member of a trio of version mascot legendaries by...you know, Zygarde never actually getting its own version(s).

 

[Boss1708]

I just wanted to say that Gen VI does feel complete. It could have had a Zygarde game, but it doesn't need it to feel complete.
The main plot points of Gen VI are Mega Evolution and the Kalos War. ORAS served as a third version expansion of XY and expanded both.

In XY, we learned about Mega Evolution. ME is clearly the biggest thing in Gen VI, and what they tried to advertise the most.

And ORAS expanded it a lot. We basically learned that the first ever Mega Evolution occured to help humanity against 2 Primals. Basically, if the two Primals didn't fight each other and cause massive havoc, Mega Evolution wouldn't have occured. It is to stop those two, why Rayquaza mega evolved. This completely wrapped up Mega Evolution's lore and plot.

And an other big plot feature of Gen VI is the Kalos War. ORAS expanded that as well, by introducing Infinite Energy, which is the same type of energy that the Ultimate Weapon uses. And also with the tree planted in Soothoolis.

So yeah, Gen VI feels complete as it is, between XY and ORAS. Wrapping up the generation this way is a lot better, imo.

I'm STILL salty about its exclusion from ORAS

Being a huge Emerald fan, I was very salty about the Battle Frontier not being in ORAS. At first. But the game offers so much new content that it makes up for the Frontier's absence.

And I think expecting the Battle Frontier EVERY SINGLE TIME a new game is coming, makes more harm than good for players. I mean, Masuda publically said the Battle Frontier isn't interesting for the majority of modern fans, and THAT IS WHY it was not in ORAS.

I think until Masuda publically says he has changed his mind and he finds the concept of a Frontier interesting again, we should not expect the Battle Frontier to somehow dodge the director's opinion and magically appear in the next game. That ain't gonna happen. So, why don't we try to enjoy the games' content, instead of constantly expect a feature that has publically been written off by GF? I mean, it's not really just ORAS. The Battle Frontier hasn't appeared since... Gen IV.

And also, expecting the Battle Frontier in the next game because of a sign in the Battle Resort saying "the Battle Frontier project has started!", is identical to expecting the Match Call upgrade, because Steven Stone said it was currently in development xD. Those were just meant to be nostalgic nods to Emerald, nothing more.

 

[Tuoko]

I just wanted to say that Gen VI does feel complete. It could have had a Zygarde game, but it doesn't need it to feel complete.
The main plot points of Gen VI are Mega Evolution and the Kalos War. ORAS served as a third version expansion of XY and expanded both.

In XY, we learned about Mega Evolution. ME is clearly the biggest thing in Gen VI, and what they tried to advertise the most.

And ORAS expanded it a lot. We basically learned that the first ever Mega Evolution occured to help humanity against 2 Primals. Basically, if the two Primals didn't fight each other and cause massive havoc, Mega Evolution wouldn't have occured. It is to stop those two, why Rayquaza mega evolved. This completely wrapped up Mega Evolution's lore and plot.

And an other big plot feature of Gen VI is the Kalos War. ORAS expanded that as well, by introducing Infinite Energy, which is the same type of energy that the Ultimate Weapon uses. And also with the tree planted in Soothoolis.

So yeah, Gen VI feels complete as it is, between XY and ORAS. Wrapping up the generation this way is a lot better, imo.

Sorry to bring up the whole Zygarde thing again, but that makes me wonder... How the heck is Zygarde even related to Mega Evolution?! It being in Mega Evolution Act IV pretty much gave off the idea that it's related to Mega Evolution in some way... Only thing I can think of is that it's like Calumon in Digimon and it can force Mega Evolution. I'd imagine they'll probably explore that in the games since there's the chance of them introducing another type of Mega Evolution if Ash-Greninja and them being secretive about it is any sign.

Being a huge Emerald fan, I was very salty about the Battle Frontier not being in ORAS. At first. But the game offers so much new content that it makes up for the Frontier's absence.

And I think expecting the Battle Frontier EVERY SINGLE TIME a new game is coming, makes more harm than good for players. I mean, Masuda publically said the Battle Frontier isn't interesting for the majority of modern fans, and THAT IS WHY it was not in ORAS.

I think until Masuda publically says he has changed his mind and he finds the concept of a Frontier interesting again, we should not expect the Battle Frontier to somehow dodge the director's opinion and magically appear in the next game. That ain't gonna happen. So, why don't we try to enjoy the games' content, instead of constantly expect a feature that has publically been written off by GF? I mean, it's not really just ORAS. The Battle Frontier hasn't appeared since... Gen IV.

And also, expecting the Battle Frontier in the next game because of a sign in the Battle Resort saying "the Battle Frontier project has started!", is identical to expecting the Match Call upgrade, because Steven Stone said it was currently in development xD. Those were just meant to be nostalgic nods to Emerald, nothing more.

I honestly didn't mind the Battle Frontier being removed, but OR/AS was nice aside from that imo. As for the "the Battle Frontier project has started!" I feel like it can be taken in two... They're either giving it to us in the next games (those being Sun & Moon) OR they're opening up the idea of "Delta Emerald" being a sequel to OR/AS, which other Emerald references have supported - Steven mentioning Wallace about taking his place in the future.

 

[Boss1708]

Sorry to bring up the whole Zygarde thing again, but that makes me wonder... How the heck is Zygarde even related to Mega Evolution?! It being in Mega Evolution Act IV pretty much gave off the idea that it's related to Mega Evolution in some way... Only thing I can think of is that it's like Calumon in Digimon and it can force Mega Evolution. I'd imagine they'll probably explore that in the games since there's the chance of them introducing another type of Mega Evolution if Ash-Greninja and them being secretive about it is any sign.

Idk. I think Zyggy has nothing to do with Mega Evolution, tbh.

I honestly didn't mind the Battle Frontier being removed, but OR/AS was nice aside from that imo. As for the "the Battle Frontier project has started!" I feel like it can be taken in two... They're either giving it to us in the next games (those being Sun & Moon) OR they're opening up the idea of "Delta Emerald" being a sequel to OR/AS, which other Emerald references have supported - Steven mentioning Wallace about taking his place in the future.

And couldn't it simply be a friendly nod to Emerald and nothing else? Like saying "and to show fans that we still remember Emerald, here are a few friendly nods".

Why does it HAVE to imply a future appearance of the Battle Frontier either in SM or Delta E? And why are we continuing to ignore Masuda publically saying the BF isn't interesting anymore?

I also wanna point out that ORAS was made by Shigeru Ohmori, so Ohmori putting Battle Frontier references in *his* game, doesn't mean that Masuda plans to give them any relevance in future games. I think Ohmori probably thought people would complain that the Battle Frontier wasn't even mentioned in ORAS, so he decided to at least mention it.

Also, if GF had a hypothetical Delta emerald game in mind for the future, I assure you Mega Ray wouldn't have been part of ORAS. And we wouldn't have faced Wallace's Emerald Champion Team. Those 2 would've been saved for Delta Emerald.

 

[Cainhxrst]

I wouldn't be surprised if the XYZ anime + Zygarde promotion stuff was meant to be a red herring, but I think GF had good intentions. People (for the most part) hadn't expected the seventh generation this year, so imo they were trying to pleasantly surprise people. I can't imagine they expected there would be people upset we weren't getting a third version and moving straight into the next gen.

That being said though, I definitely think we should reserve judgement on the whole zygarde situation until we know what's going on with Sun and Moon. GF is known for doing the unexpected.

 

[Tuoko]

And couldn't it simply be a friendly nod to Emerald and nothing else? Like saying "and to show fans that we still remember Emerald, here are a few friendly nods".

Why does it HAVE to imply a future appearance of the Battle Frontier either in SM or Delta E? And why are we continuing to ignore Masuda publically saying the BF isn't interesting anymore?

I also wanna point out that ORAS was made by Shigeru Ohmori, so Ohmori putting Battle Frontier references in *his* game, doesn't mean that Masuda plans to give them any relevance in future games. I think Ohmori probably thought people would complain that the Battle Frontier wasn't even mentioned in ORAS, so he decided to at least mention it.

Also, if GF had a hypothetical Delta emerald game in mind for the future, I assure you Mega Ray wouldn't have been part of ORAS. And we wouldn't have faced Wallace's Emerald Champion Team. Those 2 would've been saved for Delta Emerald.

I'm not denying that all that - I just meant if we take the wording seriously.

As for the why people ignore Masuda... I feel like that's because they think his reasoning is silly or they don't believe them because "they all lie" or w/e.

Yeah, they mostly would've been saved for Delta Emerald, but considering Delta Emerald would be a completely new game with new player characters, Gym Leaders, and whatever else... I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Rayquaza something else and a different team for Wallace, but that's a conversation for another day tbh.

I wouldn't be surprised if the XYZ anime + Zygarde promotion stuff was meant to be a red herring, but I think GF had good intentions. People (for the most part) hadn't expected the seventh generation this year, so imo they were trying to pleasantly surprise people. I can't imagine they expected there would be people upset we weren't getting a third version and moving straight into the next gen.

That being said though, I definitely think we should reserve judgement on the whole zygarde situation until we know what's going on with Sun and Moon. GF is known for doing the unexpected.

Same tbh. I'd imagine they thought that many wouldn't have a problem with not getting a Zygarde game and would be more excited about getting a new generation, but that definitely isn't the case now... I wouldn't mind them making more red herrings and promoting the "third Legendary" in other media tbh.