Rivals?

[Osprey]

It seems strange to me that you criticize XY for going "overkill" on the rivals by using an extreme hyperbole like "billion" to refer to a whopping four characters. Only one of whom even really resembled the traditional "rival character" mold. I have to be honest, I'm not entirely sure why people even classify Tierno, Trevor and Shauna as rivals. They are much more akin to Dawn/Lucas in DPP or Lyra/Ethan in HGSS - just some friends who pop up on occasion, except they battle you instead of aiding you in Double Battles (or doing whatever the hell Lyra/Ethan did). But they don't act like rivals. They don't care about competing with you. Only Serena/Calem do that. The other three battle you just for funsies.

Essay incoming. Didn't think I'd go on this long. Apologies in advance.

This got me thinking: why does no one have a problem with non-rivals like Ethan/Lyra or Lucas/Dawn, and why does no one classify them as rivals? The "XY friends" have similar "supporting do-nothingness" roles that the Gen IV gender-swapped protagonists had, so why do people still call them "rivals," and why do they dislike them so much?

The difference, I think, is due to how those characters are used in the story. In Gen IV, those opposite-gender protagonist characters, the "non-rivals," are barely developed at all as characters. Their role is to give a friendly face to in-game tutorials and explanations, and maybe to show up once or twice to help you in a Double Battle. Beyond that, they have little to no presence in the story, no stated goals, no quirks... really, you don't even battle them, and they rarely, if at all, challenge you to any sort of competition, battling or otherwise.

Gen VI, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. The XY friends are played up as important/supposed-to-be-memorable characters. Each one is visually distinct from the other; hell, each one had their own fully animated pre-battle model that shows their personalities through their movements, a detail that wasn't even given to the mothertrucking CHAMPION. Each one has their own stated goals, and you battle them all at least once during the game. Trevor even challenges you to a Pokédex completion contest (which he always loses? Whatever).

Oh, and presence in the story? Are you kidding me? I can't walk out of town without tripping over one of these kids. Fine, that's hyperbole, but really. These guys show up everywhere, and they're all over the main story. Look at how often a Team Flare appearance coincides with these guys showing up. They're even there when Lysandre tries to bring down the roof on your head with a superlaser! And they get the same medal of honor that you do, even though you're the one who caught the life/death beast and stopped the genocidal maniac.

They're much more memorable and... characterized than the Gen IV tutorial kids, but the XY Friends have a small problem: despite being played up as important characters, NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Okay, so there's more to friends that Pokémon battles, I can accept that, but nothing that the XY Friends did really convinced me of that. Nothing came of Tierno's dance obsession besides a quirky moveset in-battle (as if that matters, we fight him only twice) and quirky dialogue. Same with the rest of em. They're all pretty much the same people that you met at the start of the game. Static. Nothing changes, despite them all having the same amount of presence and characterization that one can usually find in a primary rival.

Oh, which reminds me of another point: I believe people were more willing to tolerate the non-rivals of Gen IV because there was a good "true rival" to balance their do-nothingness out. Silver is consistently hailed as one of the best rivals in the franchise; he's a jerkass that you want to defeat, he's a challenge, he appears quite frequently, and he changes as a character. Out of all the rivals, Silver develops the most as a character, hands-down. Barry, while not an antagonistic jerkass, still openly challenges you, and develops into a more mature and wise person over the course of the journey. You can even see specific events that shake these two up. They question their methods, their ideals, and it pushes them towards the change you see at the end of the game.

Now, Serena/Calem, the XY "true rival"... Hahahaha. Y'know, actually, I'd argue that they're even worse off than Tierno, Shauna, and Trevor, because while they aren't used as over-glorified tutorial guides, they've got the blandness of one. While the other three's roles and actions aren't very memorable/notable, they had enough quirks to distinguish them from Every Typical Pokémon Trainer Ever. The player characters are created with the intent of being a "one-size-fits-all" blank slate for the player's self-insert benefits, but this is NOT a good thing when that blankness carries over into what's supposed to be a SEPERATE CHARACTER. Goal: become strong/Champion. *starts singing first lines of Pokémon opening theme* lol, THEY CAN'T EVEN BEAT YOU, THEIR SUPPOSED RIVAL.

tl;dr: XY gave the uniqueness of a rival to the do-nothings, and the blandness of a do-nothing to the rival.

It probably didn't help that this was coming off the heels of Gen V, where we had several distinct, unique, developed, recurring, and important rival/friend-figures in Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, and N.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Essay incoming. Didn't think I'd go on this long. Apologies in advance.

This got me thinking: why does no one have a problem with non-rivals like Ethan/Lyra or Lucas/Dawn, and why does no one classify them as rivals? The "XY friends" have similar "supporting do-nothingness" roles that the Gen IV gender-swapped protagonists had, so why do people still call them "rivals," and why do they dislike them so much?

The difference, I think, is due to how those characters are used in the story. In Gen IV, those opposite-gender protagonist characters, the "non-rivals," are barely developed at all as characters. Their role is to give a friendly face to in-game tutorials and explanations, and maybe to show up once or twice to help you in a Double Battle. Beyond that, they have little to no presence in the story, no stated goals, no quirks... really, you don't even battle them, and they rarely, if at all, challenge you to any sort of competition, battling or otherwise.

Gen VI, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. The XY friends are played up as important/supposed-to-be-memorable characters. Each one is visually distinct from the other; hell, each one had their own fully animated pre-battle model that shows their personalities through their movements, a detail that wasn't even given to the mothertrucking CHAMPION. Each one has their own stated goals, and you battle them all at least once during the game. Trevor even challenges you to a Pokédex completion contest (which he always loses? Whatever).

Oh, and presence in the story? Are you kidding me? I can't walk out of town without tripping over one of these kids. Fine, that's hyperbole, but really. These guys show up everywhere, and they're all over the main story. Look at how often a Team Flare appearance coincides with these guys showing up. They're even there when Lysandre tries to bring down the roof on your head with a superlaser! And they get the same medal of honor that you do, even though you're the one who caught the life/death beast and stopped the genocidal maniac.

They're much more memorable and... characterized than the Gen IV tutorial kids, but the XY Friends have a small problem: despite being played up as important characters, NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Okay, so there's more to friends that Pokémon battles, I can accept that, but nothing that the XY Friends did really convinced me of that. Nothing came of Tierno's dance obsession besides a quirky moveset in-battle (as if that matters, we fight him only twice) and quirky dialogue. Same with the rest of em. They're all pretty much the same people that you met at the start of the game. Static. Nothing changes, despite them all having the same amount of presence and characterization that one can usually find in a primary rival.

Oh, which reminds me of another point: I believe people were more willing to tolerate the non-rivals of Gen IV because there was a good "true rival" to balance their do-nothingness out. Silver is consistently hailed as one of the best rivals in the franchise; he's a jerkass that you want to defeat, he's a challenge, he appears quite frequently, and he changes as a character. Out of all the rivals, Silver develops the most as a character, hands-down. Barry, while not an antagonistic jerkass, still openly challenges you, and develops into a more mature and wise person over the course of the journey. You can even see specific events that shake these two up. They question their methods, their ideals, and it pushes them towards the change you see at the end of the game.

Now, Serena/Calem, the XY "true rival"... Hahahaha. Y'know, actually, I'd argue that they're even worse off than Tierno, Shauna, and Trevor, because while they aren't used as over-glorified tutorial guides, they've got the blandness of one. While the other three's roles and actions aren't very memorable/notable, they had enough quirks to distinguish them from Every Typical Pokémon Trainer Ever. The player characters are created with the intent of being a "one-size-fits-all" blank slate for the player's self-insert benefits, but this is NOT a good thing when that blankness carries over into what's supposed to be a SEPERATE CHARACTER. Goal: become strong/Champion. *starts singing first lines of Pokémon opening theme* lol, THEY CAN'T EVEN BEAT YOU, THEIR SUPPOSED RIVAL.

tl;dr: XY gave the uniqueness of a rival to the do-nothings, and the blandness of a do-nothing to the rival.

It probably didn't help that this was coming off the heels of Gen V, where we had several distinct, unique, developed, recurring, and important rival/friend-figures in Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, and N.

You hit the nail on the head there. Lucas/Dawn and Ethan/Lyra were barely present in their respective games and never battle you, so they're forgettable and never really recognized as "rivals" (I would like to see this change with Lucas/Dawn in Sinnoh remakes, but let's save that for the remake thread). The XY friends are really shoved in your face and have nothing to show for it, they're just sort of there at random points in the storyline. They don't really impact the storyline and they don't grow as characters, they're just random bodies to populate major plot points.

 

[Esserise]

Gen VI, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. The XY friends are played up as important/supposed-to-be-memorable characters. Each one is visually distinct from the other; hell, each one had their own fully animated pre-battle model that shows their personalities through their movements, a detail that wasn't even given to the mothertrucking CHAMPION. Each one has their own stated goals, and you battle them all at least once during the game. Trevor even challenges you to a Pokédex completion contest (which he always loses? Whatever).

Oh, and presence in the story? Are you kidding me? I can't walk out of town without tripping over one of these kids. Fine, that's hyperbole, but really. These guys show up everywhere, and they're all over the main story. Look at how often a Team Flare appearance coincides with these guys showing up. They're even there when Lysandre tries to bring down the roof on your head with a superlaser! And they get the same medal of honor that you do, even though you're the one who caught the life/death beast and stopped the genocidal maniac.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point. Like, specifically with them having 3D battle intros and such instead of Diantha - we know that Masuda's ethos on the 3D elements of XY was that they reserved it for the more important pars. And in terms of XY, the focus is on enjoying the journey through Kalos, rather than the standard routine of blazing through the Gyms and becoming the Champion. [Now, obviously the nature of the games forces you to go through the League, but t]hat's why Sycamore doesn't really care how you go about your experience. At several points, he emphasizes that the journey is what's important. And the whole idea of the XY friends is having a group of friends with different personalities, who all do this in their own way, but move at about the same pace as you. In a sense, I think it is meant to somewhat simulate the idea of travelling companions, like in the anime, except without attaching them to your hip (as that would be a lot trickier from a gameplay perspective).

Also, you literally could not leave a town in BW without running into Cheren, Bianca, or N either. So to some degree, this is just a consequence of their more streamlined approach at storytelling. B2W2 did it too, if memory serves. It was less prevalent in ORAS, but that would probably be because they are remakes of games that were made in the older style.

They're much more memorable and... characterized than the Gen IV tutorial kids, but the XY Friends have a small problem: despite being played up as important characters, NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Okay, so there's more to friends that Pokémon battles, I can accept that, but nothing that the XY Friends did really convinced me of that. Nothing came of Tierno's dance obsession besides a quirky moveset in-battle (as if that matters, we fight him only twice) and quirky dialogue. Same with the rest of em. They're all pretty much the same people that you met at the start of the game. Static. Nothing changes, despite them all having the same amount of presence and characterization that one can usually find in a primary rival.

I have to disagree here to some extent. Obviously I think they could have done a little more with them (and Tierno in particular really needed something else to make him stand out), but again, given that the focus was on travelling around Kalos and just having fun doing that, as opposed to BW wanting to show three characters figuring out what they wanted to do with their lives, I don't think that a heavy development for them is *as* essential, especially since they aren't your main rival. And I think they accomplish this, even though I would say it's at the bare minimum of acceptability.

If it were me, I would have had them each focus on a different mechanic, in the way that Trevor is committed to working on the PokéDex - Shauna clearly just likes fawning over Pokémon, so have her babble about Pokémon-Amie. Tierno, in an amusing twist, could be a hardcore Super Trainer. Just to show that they have found other aspects of the experience with Pokémon which modifies how they experience their journey.

Now, Serena/Calem, the XY "true rival"... Hahahaha. Y'know, actually, I'd argue that they're even worse off than Tierno, Shauna, and Trevor, because while they aren't used as over-glorified tutorial guides, they've got the blandness of one. While the other three's roles and actions aren't very memorable/notable, they had enough quirks to distinguish them from Every Typical Pokémon Trainer Ever. The player characters are created with the intent of being a "one-size-fits-all" blank slate for the player's self-insert benefits, but this is NOT a good thing when that blankness carries over into what's supposed to be a SEPERATE CHARACTER. Goal: become strong/Champion. *starts singing first lines of Pokémon opening theme* lol, THEY CAN'T EVEN BEAT YOU, THEIR SUPPOSED RIVAL.

I feel like you're overlooking a bit of the nuance in Serena/Calem that I personally really liked about them - their goal is obviously to compete with you and become the Champion, but it's an inversion of the usual Blue-like rival dynamic. Instead of them constantly being "better" then you (except not really), they simply cannot surmount you, and this clearly frustrates them at several points. Which is, in my opinion, a fairly clever exploitation of the fact that the game won't let you lose to them (which I think is definitely what Blue needed, was for the game to progress even if you lost). And by the time you hit Victory Road, they have had a shift in their outlook - they've come to enjoy battling for battling's sake instead of constantly getting frustrated about losing. Sure, they're no Silver or Cheren, but I think it's at least equal to a Barry or a Hugh.

 

[Osprey]

Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point. Like, specifically with them having 3D battle intros and such instead of Diantha - we know that Masuda's ethos on the 3D elements of XY was that they reserved it for the more important pars. And in terms of XY, the focus is on enjoying the journey through Kalos, rather than the standard routine of blazing through the Gyms and becoming the Champion. [Now, obviously the nature of the games forces you to go through the League, but t]hat's why Sycamore doesn't really care how you go about your experience. At several points, he emphasizes that the journey is what's important. And the whole idea of the XY friends is having a group of friends with different personalities, who all do this in their own way, but move at about the same pace as you. In a sense, I think it is meant to somewhat simulate the idea of traveling companions, like in the anime, except without attaching them to your hip (as that would be a lot trickier from a gameplay perspective).

I understand the intent behind it. I just believe that it wasn't fully realized nor properly implemented, and the characters suffered as a result.
The overall sentiment the fanbase has about the Friends is proof of that.

You were wondering why so many people hold the XY Friends to the standards of Rivals. Well... it's because they have a lot of those qualities! Like, for example-

you literally could not leave a town in BW without running into Cheren, Bianca, or N either.

Nice, I didn't even need to type it up myself!

I wasn't suggesting that frequent appearances are bad. If you take a character like Blue or Silver and multiply them by three, they're gonna show up three times more than usual. That's understandable.
However, they can and they will remind people of the concept of a Rival, that one character who keeps showing up all over the game and knows you personally.

In fact, let's take a quick look at all the qualities that Rivals commonly share throughout this franchise:

- Unique design: an unmistakable one-of-a-kind appearance shared by no one else. At least, not in-game. (Lookin' at you, Brendan/May)

- Extra visual details: if character sprite animations or full 3D models are present, you bet they will have one, even if almost no one else does. The character may even have some unique overworld animations too (ex: Bianca pulling down her hat, Cheren's impatient toe-tapping)

- Unique battle music/motifs: these characters' presences are often heralded by a unique theme, and many get their own battle themes, especially later on in the franchise.

- Beginner battle: they might not be your first fight per se, but they tend to come at you with a lv. 5 regional starter and nothing else. (There are exceptions. I mean, if ya call N a Rival.)

- Recurring character: these characters just won't stop following you! Sometimes, they'll even show up during the climax of the story. ... Actually that happens a lot.

- They know you: and they will remember you. You could be childhood friends or only just met 5 minutes ago, it doesn't matter.

- You fight. A lot. Like, almost every time they show up, get ready for a tough battle.

The XY Friends indisputably have the unique design/details thing down. Your very first Pokemon battle is NOT with Serena/Calem, but with Shauna and her starter. The few times you fight them, they all share the same battle theme as Serena/Calem, as well as a similar tune in the overworld. These guys are your friends, so they definitely know you, and they definitely show up all over the place.

The only missing quality: Tierno, Shauna, and Trevor don't fight you almost every time you meet them.

I'm not qualifying whether they are Rivals or not. I'm just saying, it's not surprising that many view them as such, because they follow the formula that we've come to expect over the course of 20 years. Even if a fan knows fully well that they aren't supposed to be Rivals, the similar, recurring patterns will still remind them of past Rivals, and comparisons, even subconscious ones, are inevitable.

And since the Rival has tended to be one of the stronger, more well-developed, and memorable characters in the past, they set the bar pretty high for any comparisons. And not many seem to believe that the Friends met expectations. You yourself said that Tierno could've stood a little more characterization. I believe they all needed it. They may not be the "true rival," but damn if that isn't a lame excuse to not put any effort into their development at all- especially with how often you see them!

Masuda, the writers, whoever was in charge of this particular aspect of the game... they might have had a certain intention with these characters or the themes they conveyed (such as the one you yourself suggested), but this intent doesn't matter if the author fails to convey their idea properly, and the mass majority of the audience interprets it as something else. There's a fine line between being nuanced and simply not telling a story properly. I'm not gonna declare that XY's characterizations are one or the other, but... If you ask me, if your intent is to convey a specific theme or idea to the audience, subtlety is good, but you also have to make sure that you actually get your point across in the end, or everyone except for you will end up missing the point.

 

[godiego]

The overall sentiment the fanbase has about the Friends is proof of that.

that's a poor standard, however. firstly, you have the fact that the fanbase has a tendency to cherrypick; for all everyone rags on the characters in XY, they've always seemed to ignore characters like Brendan/May and Wally in RSE, which are just as bad if not worse. even still what they attribute as flaws to the XY posse, such as their omnipresence, are applicable to other characters or rivals. not to mention when it does come up, it's usually hand-waved with a sort of "well yeah but that's different" or a sort of "but they didn't come after Gen V." secondly, fans flip-flop a fair amount; i remember when Gen V first started, BW was largely reviled by the fanbase. BW2 is released and people start to warm up to the generation as a whole, and nowadays-- from what i've seen at least-- it's one of the more appreciated games and generations.

i also take contention with your standard for a rival. due to the nature of the Pokemon's main cast (read: it's small), the criteria you laid out fits almost any recurring character. take out the two battle related ones and Steven Stone fits in, as well as Cyrus, Cynthia, Iris, and Alder. take out the first battle criterion and N, Zinzolin, and Sycamore become your rivals. of course, consider the battle related ones and Wally does not fit as a rival. depending on which game and your interpretation of a lot and neither does Brendan/May. the posse in XY is definitely crunchy at times. that being said, so is just about every character in Pokemon anyways. even the best characters in the main series are still really meh to bad.

 

[Esserise]

You were wondering why so many people hold the XY Friends to the standards of Rivals. Well... it's because they have a lot of those qualities! Like, for example-

Nice, I didn't even need to type it up myself!

Well, what I was saying there was that the frequent appearances were not a "trait" of a rival. It's a consequence of the increased story thrust. They're there to railroad you to the next plot beat. That could be accomplished by virtually any character - it's a function of the storytelling method. In BW, they just happened to do it using the rivals (mostly). In B2W2, they did use Hugh sometimes, but other times, they used Cheren/Bianca/Juniper/Colress, none of whom are not rivals.

And since the Rival has tended to be one of the stronger, more well-developed, and memorable characters in the past, they set the bar pretty high for any comparisons. And not many seem to believe that the Friends met expectations. You yourself said that Tierno could've stood a little more characterization. I believe they all needed it. They may not be the "true rival," but damn if that isn't a lame excuse to not put any effort into their development at all- especially with how often you see them!

Well it's all fine and good to not like them of course. But I personally think it is important, even (or perhaps especially) when making a comparison, to keep the differences between two types of characters and their roles in a story in mind. A lesser supporting character simply, fundamentally is not going to hold up in comparison to a deuteragonist, for instance, even if they have things in common and both appear frequently in the story. Look at Looker in Platinum. He has a unique sprite, he has a unique theme, he appears at multiple story-heavy points throughout the game and is even featured in the opening cinematic - these are of course the hallmarks of a character they want us to notice - but [within the scope of Platinum] he doesn't develop or anything, because he isn't supposed to.

Masuda, the writers, whoever was in charge of this particular aspect of the game... they might have had a certain intention with these characters or the themes they conveyed (such as the one you yourself suggested), but this intent doesn't matter if the author fails to convey their idea properly, and the mass majority of the audience interprets it as something else. There's a fine line between being nuanced and simply not telling a story properly. I'm not gonna declare that XY's characterizations are one or the other, but... If you ask me, if your intent is to convey a specific theme or idea to the audience, subtlety is good, but you also have to make sure that you actually get your point across in the end, or everyone except for you will end up missing the point.

I do agree with this line of thinking, even though I also think that there is a little more to XY than people tend to give it credit for, and I don't think that it necessarily requires a metaphorical magnifying glass in order to see it. Like, I'm not trying to say that it's secretly a masterpiece or anything. I just feel that some of the fans' readings and interpretations gloss over some of the ideas that, I guess *I* felt, at least, were fairly clear.

 

[techitisJ]

I just want to see a rival who is actually a challenge for me, someone who at least in the beginning isn't my friend. Maybe a complete jerk like Gary or Silver even. I want someone who just shows up randomly in the route with a whole team ready to get me whie I haven't healed and actually have to work to beat him/her. Our past rivals, Calem/Serena, Hugh, Bianca, Cheren, N, Barry, Wally, Brendan/May. I didn't play Black and White, but I did play the sequals to those games. Yes Hugh did have the right spirit of a rival, and I think he's been the best we've had since Silver in gen 2 and the remakes for it. Though I miss the jerk character. At least let us get a rival who is actually some real competition.

We might have a chance too, it seems. I bet this has been brought up before, but Hau, the friend character we saw on the May 10th trailers, and now named in today's June 2nd trailer, has the starter that is weak to yours. So I thin we'll be getting another rival character. That being said, a new character Lillie was also introduced in today's trailer. Maybe she will have the starter that counters yours. Maybe she is your rival. Though it is important to note that her bio states she doesn't like battling much. So it may be her, or it could be another character introduced later on.

 

[Alolan Coconut]

My bet - well, more hope actually - at the moment is that Lillie is part of the evil team and working under cover as an assistant to Kukui. Wouldn't that be amazing. An antagonistic rival aaand she's female.

 

[techitisJ]

My bet - well, more hope actually - at the moment is that Lillie is part of the evil team and working under cover as an assistant to Kukui. Wouldn't that be amazing. An antagonistic rival aaand she's female.

I seriously love the idea of having a rival like character who is actually part of the villain team. It brings something new to the table. It's quite a popular idea too it seems.

 

[The Outrage]

I seriously love the idea of having a rival like character who is actually part of the villain team. It brings something new to the table. It's quite a popular idea too it seems.

N was playing this role since he was also collecting gym badges and battled you on a casual basis (i.e., outside Team Plasma operations) like your rival would. Of course, it was never a secret which side N was on--the twist was that he was the antagonist but was slowly seeing your side, whereas Lillie could be your friend but betrays you.

 

[techitisJ]

N was playing this role since he was also collecting gym badges and battled you on a casual basis (i.e., outside Team Plasma operations) like your rival would. Of course, it was never a secret which side N was on--the twist was that he was the antagonist but was slowly seeing your side, whereas Lillie could be your friend but betrays you.

Oh woops. Forgot about N. Didn't actually play that game he was in. I do like the idea of the friend who betrays you in the end though. Thats awesome.

 

[Almonds]

I like the new friend. He looks so cute :3

 

[TouyaShiro]

I'm not holding out on any expectations right now. We're already blowing the possibilities way out of proportion, in my opinion, and though they may indeed go that route, I'd prefer to wait to see what makes Lillie actually mysterious before drawing conclusions. We haven't even seen the damn enemy team yet and we're already speculating on someone potentially close to us to be an antagonist!?

Of course, for some, that's borderline potential spoilers, but hey - that's up to them to pay attention to.

With that being said, I think it'd be a far more interesting idea for her to play both sides for her own personal gain. If her ultimate goal is to do with the respective Legendary of the Alola region, perhaps any source necessary would be required to get close. Lucky for her, the protagonist always gets caught up in some sort of conflict... It's a genius plan!

 

[Alolan Coconut]

I'm not holding out on any expectations right now. We're already blowing the possibilities way out of proportion, in my opinion, and though they may indeed go that route, I'd prefer to wait to see what makes Lillie actually mysterious before drawing conclusions. We haven't even seen the damn enemy team yet and we're already speculating on someone potentially close to us to be an antagonist!?

Nah, I'm not really drawing any conclusions. Just speculating about the new game information. Nothing wrong with that. If it turns out that they are going a completely different way than I had hoped with Lillie, I'll probably like it as well.

 

[potatomon]

Hau looks like the "friendly" rival, especially since he gets the weaker starter. Looks like someone fun to battle every once in a while. Hope he poses more of a threat like Barry and less like Shauna.

Lillie, on the other hand, looks SUPER interesting. I'm super convinced that she's going to get the stronger starter, considering she's Kukui's assistant, and was introduced right alongside Kukui (who hands them out) and Hau (who we know gets the weaker starter). Already introduced as mysterious, and maybe it'll be more obvious as time goes on, but she's not like N where her shady affiliations are super obvious. I'm curious to see how they're going to play her. She has "lie" in her name but that could be a coincidence based on how her name is spelled in German. Either way, it's going to be interesting and I bet she'll be the most interesting "rival" since N (I don't consider him a 'traditional rival' but he basically fills the role as the guy you gotta start and end your story with a la Blue, Brendan/May in ORAS, etc.).

 

[TouyaShiro]

Nah, I'm not really drawing any conclusions. Just speculating about the new game information. Nothing wrong with that.

That I understand. Still, it seems like half the people are dead set on that possibility. (I will admit, the way I wrote that sentence is also blowing things out of proportion - how many of you believe that Game Freak would pull something like that off successfully without being an N clone?)

 

[Zeb]

Hau feels like he might be a Barry/Hugh (without all the latter's angst) in that he'll be a pretty competent rival/friend but not a jerk and not super friends and rainbows forever.

Interested to see what they do with Lillie after that line on the official site about her being important. It says she doesn't like battling so unless she's just acting I can't see her being the champion? Then again she seems to be there when you get your starter (hat is visible in one of the trailers last month) and we know Hau doesn't get the starter strong to yours... Too many possibilities right now I guess.

 

[Esserise]

lol, random thuoght but, what if they're finally going whole-hog on making the games easier, and getting rid of Rivals who take the Starter that has the advantage over yours?

That actually would irritate me. Up to this point, I have thought that their difficulty-trimming decisions have been well-placed and nicely optional. But I would actually find something like having no Rival with an advantage over you to be a bit condescending. Here's hoping it's just one of my stray thoughts and nothing more!

 

[Shadow Rush]

N was playing this role since he was also collecting gym badges and battled you on a casual basis (i.e., outside Team Plasma operations) like your rival would. Of course, it was never a secret which side N was on--the twist was that he was the antagonist but was slowly seeing your side, whereas Lillie could be your friend but betrays you.

Wha--No, N was not collecting the gym badges. Not that I remember... He scolded the player for participating in what he believe is animal abuse. Before the final confrontation, Team Plasma and him barge their way into the Pokemon League defeating Alder.

 

[Esserise]

Wha--No, N was not collecting the gym badges. Not that I remember... He scolded the player for participating in what he believe is animal abuse. Before the final confrontation, Team Plasma and him barge their way into the Pokemon League defeating Alder.

I don't think it was ever clarified one way or the other whether he entered the League legitimately by collecting badges. That was never my impression, but (and I did just play BW recently) I don't think it was ever said that he *wasn't*, either.

The fact that he spoke out against Pokémon battling doesn't matter, though, because he clearly still partook in Pokémon battles numerous times. As an unfortunate means to an end, of course - trying to change the system from within. Hence why he released his Pokémon after every battle, and used a different set of Pokémon from the local area in subsequent encounters.

E: Actually, it occurs to me, that I don't think his name ever appears on the Gyms' Certified Trainers list. So we can probably infer that he didn't collect any badges. But the second point still stands; he would have done it if he had to.