The "final" thought about the Arceus/Mew "problem".

[Articwolf10]

The information we have about Arceus is myth. It has to be, unless you believe there was somebody around at the beginning of the universe to take notes.

The information we have about Mew comes from the scientists who studied it.

Now, which is more likely to be accurate?

The Myths mew can't possibly have the DNA of all pokemon... the Weather Trio essently created themselves Porygon and Golurk are articial Elygem has only been on earth for 50 years. The Creation Trio and Lake Trio were created by Arceus.

Myths have a habit of being true in the Pokemon world like the Weather Trio. And how I see it Arceus creeated everything and made Mew to populate the world with Pokemon and some eventually evolved into humans... hw do they know that mew has the DNA of all pokemon? did they disect every pokemon and scan it against Mew's an how did they get DNA from Mew in the first place she's supossed to be rare?

 

[CliveKoopa]

I still think Arceus created humans seperately from pokemon. That seems to be the most logical answer to me. I don't think literal evolution like in real life exists in the Pokemon world. If it was then as I said in my previous posts, what stops us from being like Pokemon like the pokeballs, understanding them, etc.

 

[Articwolf10]

I still think Arceus created humans seperately from pokemon. That seems to be the most logical answer to me. I don't think literal evolution like in real life exists in the Pokemon world. If it was then as I said in my previous posts, what stops us from being like Pokemon like the pokeballs, understanding them, etc.

SQS explained this perfectly our brains evolved different from the pokemon kinda like how we changed from apes... Plus Archenis the 'First Bird' Pokemon and he couldn't fly until he evolved so all the other Bird pokemon evovled and gained the ability to fly and the likes of Meowth and the other cats can be explained via divergent evolution from a commin annsetor

 

[CliveKoopa]

what did SQS say?

Anyway the relationship between humans and apes is far different from the relationship between humans and pokemon. Pokemon have cries or speak their own name, humans don't. Pokemon can be captured in pokeballs and have various attacks/moves, humans don't. Pokemon can understand one another, humans can't understand pokemon. Pokemon can evolve, humans cant. I can go on and on about this. Who is Archenis by the way? Is that a B/W pokemon?

You can't have literal evolution and the usual instant pokemon evolution in the same universe, it wouldn't make sense.

 

[raychuu]

This is not the place to discuss from where Humans in the Pokémon World come from.

 

[Articwolf10]

what did SQS say?

Anyway the relationship between humans and apes is far different from the relationship between humans and pokemon. Pokemon have cries or speak their own name, humans don't. Pokemon can be captured in pokeballs and have various attacks/moves, humans don't. Pokemon can understand one another, humans can't understand pokemon. Pokemon can evolve, humans cant. I can go on and on about this. Who is Archenis by the way? Is that a B/W pokemon?

^^ That's like asking why we don't give off seeds at regular intervals, even though we share a good part of our DNA with certain plants. Human brains are differently developed, but that doesn't mean we don't have a common ancestor.

I say over the millenia we diverged so much that we lost the Pokemons power... and yes Archeon is a B/W pokemon a fossil pokemon and is called the 'First Bird' pokemon so that shows true evolution has taken place in the Pokemon world

 

[CliveKoopa]

As I said in my previous post, how can you have literal evolution and instant evolution in the same universe? Why introduce true evolution now when instant evolution has been the norm for the past 14 years or so. You keep saying we. You can't compare real human evolution to humans in the pokemon world.

I wouldn't have a problem with true evolution if instant evolution existed in the pokemon universe. I just can't accept that true evolution and instant evolution exist in the same universe. It doesn't make sense. You can't have both..

This is going offtopic anyway, I've said everything I want to say on this and I'm not going to argue any further.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

The Myths mew can't possibly have the DNA of all pokemon... the Weather Trio essently created themselves Porygon and Golurk are articial Elygem has only been on earth for 50 years. The Creation Trio and Lake Trio were created by Arceus.

I'll concede that the explanation for Mew's origins don't stand up to close scientific scrutiny, but you're not looking at the Arceus myth with equal scrutiny. One what basis are we supposed to believe that it created certain Pokémon? All we have to go on is a bunch of in-universe fairy tales and the fact that, in an event, it can cause a specific Pokémon to appear from nowhere. Who's to say that's not just how legendaries breed? They have to come from somewhere, after all.

Myths have a habit of being true in the Pokemon world like the Weather Trio.

I've heard this "all myths are true" argument before, and I don't buy it. Just because the Weather Trio exist and fight each other doesn't mean that every detail of their Pokédex data is true. Entries which, for the most part, are worded very specifically as myths. "Groudon has long been described in mythology as..." "Said to have..." "Kyogre is named in mythology as..."

Even if myths have a tendency to line up with reality in the Pokémon universe, when information conflicts, what are we supposed to believe? Millennia-old legends about a Pokémon that nobody has seen, describing it in the kind of hyperbolic language used to discuss deities, or the actual first-hand findings of real, present-day scientists who found a Pokémon, studied it, and understood its genetics well enough to not just clone it, but to make an augmented clone? The description of Mew's genetics doesn't line up especially well with real-world evolution, and there are, as you point out, some logical paradoxes. But what you're doing here is elevating unverifiable ancient myths above the discoveries of scientists who were smart enough to do some heavy-duty genetic engineering... and your justification of that is that the scientists mustn't have understood basic genetics?

 

[Articwolf10]

I'll concede that the explanation for Mew's origins don't stand up to close scientific scrutiny, but you're not looking at the Arceus myth with equal scrutiny. One what basis are we supposed to believe that it created certain Pokémon? All we have to go on is a bunch of in-universe fairy tales and the fact that, in an event, it can cause a specific Pokémon to appear from nowhere. Who's to say that's not just how legendaries breed? They have to come from somewhere, after all.


I've heard this "all myths are true" argument before, and I don't buy it. Just because the Weather Trio exist and fight each other doesn't mean that every detail of their Pokédex data is true. Entries which, for the most part, are worded very specifically as myths. "Groudon has long been described in mythology as..." "Said to have..." "Kyogre is named in mythology as..."

Even if myths have a tendency to line up with reality in the Pokémon universe, when information conflicts, what are we supposed to believe? Millennia-old legends about a Pokémon that nobody has seen, describing it in the kind of hyperbolic language used to discuss deities, or the actual first-hand findings of real, present-day scientists who found a Pokémon, studied it, and understood its genetics well enough to not just clone it, but to make an augmented clone? The description of Mew's genetics doesn't line up especially well with real-world evolution, and there are, as you point out, some logical paradoxes. But what you're doing here is elevating unverifiable ancient myths above the discoveries of scientists who were smart enough to do some heavy-duty genetic engineering... and your justification of that is that the scientists mustn't have understood basic genetics?

The fight between Groudon and Kyogre had cataslismic results... if brendand/May hadn't fetched Rayquaza Hoenn would have surly been destroyed and worse yet the effects were spreading given enough time they would have destroyed the world. plus in platinum cyrus was very close to completing his goals of a new universe and hell when those two were summoned they instantly created an entire miniture galexy and if not for giratina the world would have been completly reset...

Two major legends have been shown to be undoubtibly true. Mew can still have the DNAof all pokemon being pretty much Adam and Eve of the pokemon world... and if Arceus created her she has a high chance of having his DNA as well

 

[Master Mew]

The Myths mew can't possibly have the DNA of all pokemon... the Weather Trio essently created themselves

Unverifiable myth.

Elygem has only been on earth for 50 years.

There can't be Mew elsewhere?

The Creation Trio and Lake Trio were created by Arceus

Also a myth.

hw do they know that mew has the DNA of all pokemon? did they disect every pokemon and scan it against Mew's

Apparently all the DNA samples they had at the time that statement was made matched.

an how did they get DNA from Mew in the first place she's supossed to be rare?

We already know they possessed a specimen and performed experiments on it (Cinnibar Lab).

 

[Articwolf10]

Unverifiable myth.

There can't be Mew elsewhere?

Also a myth.

Apparently all the DNA sample they had at the time that statement was made matched; and since that time was Generation 2, we know they already had extensive knowledge of 151 Pokemon from Professor Oak's Pokedex project, that seems like a reasonable pool of evidence.

We already know they possessed a specimen and performed experiments on it (Cinnibar Lab).

Mew can pretty much be said to be Earth exlusive as there has never been any mention of her existing anywhere else... and 150 out of 600+ no not good odds at all... Why can't mythes me true the Weather Trio and Creation Trio's legends seemed to pretty spot on since Kyogre ad Groudon almost annilated Hoenn by making the weather go wonkey and Cyrus was scary close to reseting the universe hell those two made an entire GALEXY within a second of being summoned imagine if Giratina hadn't interviened...
Plus Arceus creating the Creation Trio is definily NOT a myth have you forgotten the Ruins of Alph event?

 

[Master Mew]

Mew can pretty much be said to be Earth exlusive as there has never been any mention of her existing anywhere else...

How would we know one way or the other? I'm not comfortable with dismissal by omission.

and 150 out of 600+ no not good odds at all...

It is perfectly understandable for scientists to form theories based off of the entirety of the information they currently possess.

Why can't mythes me true the Weather Trio and Creation Trio's legends seemed to pretty spot on since Kyogre ad Groudon almost annilated Hoenn by making the weather go wonkey

And... Mewtwo almost annihilated the planet by "making the weather go wonkey."

and Cyrus was scary close to reseting the universe hell those two made an entire GALEXY within a second of being summoned imagine if Giratina hadn't interviened...

The legitimacy of that galaxy is another hotly debated topic.

 

[Articwolf10]

How would we know one way or the other? I'm not comfortable with dismissal by omission.

It is perfectly understandable for scientists to form theories based off of the entirety of the information they currently possess.

And... Mewtwo almost annihilated the planet by "making the weather go wonkey."

The legitimacy of that galaxy is another hotly debated topic.

Anime/=/Games Mewtwo only did that in the movie which isn't canon in the games while Groudon and Kyogre did in the games and since the Games and anime are seperete universes they can't be compared try again....

And thats it the Mew thing is a theory thus can't be proven as of yet so thats just as dubious as the arceus thing. And that Galexy seemed real to me so explain what you think would've happened if Giratina hadn't interupted Cyrus?

 

[Master Mew]

And thats it the Mew thing is a theory thus can't be proven as of yet so thats just as dubious as the arceus thing. And that Galexy seemed real to me so explain what you think would've happened if Giratina hadn't interupted Cyrus?

On the galaxy issue, I was merely pointing out that for many it's up for debate, I do think it's important to separate our actual observations from our interpretations of those observations.

As to the "theory" issue, the same is parroted often of evolutionary theory in real-life, and it is a weak argument at best. The point is that the scientists who purport that theory had a generous pool of evidence to draw from - not an all-encompassing body of evidence, but certainly more than most commonly accepted scientific theories in the real-world can claim, and a million times more evidence than we possess to back up the local legends of Sinnoh - which apparently weren't shared by the Kanto scientists who penned Mew's Pokedex entries.

Yes, it's a theory, but a theory with any evidence at all trumps legend in my book.

 

[Articwolf10]

On the galaxy issue, I was merely pointing out that for many it's up for debate, I do think it's important to separate our actual observations from our interpretations of those observations.

As to the "theory" issue, the same is parroted often of evolutionary theory in real-life, and it is a weak argument at best. The point is that the scientists who purport that theory had a generous pool of evidence to draw from - not an all-encompassing body of evidence, but certainly more than most commonly accepted scientific theories in the real-world can claim, and a million times more evidence than we possess to back up the local legends of Sinnoh - which apparently weren't shared by the Kanto scientists who penned Mew's Pokedex entries.

Yes, it's a theory, but a theory with any evidence at all trumps legend in my book.

Why can't both be true... if you think about it Arceus and Mew can be a shout out to the Bible and Genisis... Mew is essently the Poke Version of Adam and Eve really. and since humans subosibly evolved from Pokemon (We had to come from somewhere right?) I like to think both are true.

 

[Pyradox]

May I say:

• Who is SQS?
• We're getting somewhat off topic, so I'm going to make a thread of how humans came about in the Pokémon World.
• I think that since Mew has been confirmed to have the DNA of every Pokémon in some of the newer Pokédexes (HGSS perhaps?) they must do more cross-checks with Mew every time a new Pokémon is discovered.

 

[Blue1225]

I'm just gonna say again that right now it looks like both are true. Arceus created the universe and a few Legendary pokemon, but Mew's still the answer of all pokemon with a fe exceptions.

On a side note,since Gen 1 Mew has still been said to be the ancsestor of all pokemon. So in regards to new pokemon it should just be treated as a retcon, with new pokemon being factored in as Mew's descendents every Generation.

 

[CliveKoopa]

I'll concede that the explanation for Mew's origins don't stand up to close scientific scrutiny, but you're not looking at the Arceus myth with equal scrutiny. One what basis are we supposed to believe that it created certain Pokémon? All we have to go on is a bunch of in-universe fairy tales and the fact that, in an event, it can cause a specific Pokémon to appear from nowhere. Who's to say that's not just how legendaries breed? They have to come from somewhere, after all.

I believe that some legendaries but not all can breed just like ordinary pokemon. As for Arceus, I believe he created all pokemon seperately and created the evolution system what we are familiar with.

I've heard this "all myths are true" argument before, and I don't buy it. Just because the Weather Trio exist and fight each other doesn't mean that every detail of their Pokédex data is true. Entries which, for the most part, are worded very specifically as myths. "Groudon has long been described in mythology as..." "Said to have..." "Kyogre is named in mythology as..."

Not just legendaries but almost all pokemon. Almost every pokedex entry makes myths as if every pokemon was one-of-a-kind (One Cubone's skull, etc..)

Mew can pretty much be said to be Earth exlusive as there has never been any mention of her existing anywhere else

I have to agree with Master Mew on this and I believe that there are multiple Mews in the pokemon universe, although they are very rare.

Plus Arceus creating the Creation Trio is definily NOT a myth have you forgotten the Ruins of Alph event?

I don't know what you are talking about. There is nothing but Unown in the Ruins of Alph.

 

[Pyradox]

Plus Arceus creating the Creation Trio is definily NOT a myth have you forgotten the Ruins of Alph event?

There is no such event in the Ruins of Alph.

Arceus did create Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf as well as Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. This is confirmed at some point, yes? I'm not sure where for the pixies, but in the Sinjoh Ruins Arceus will manufacture one of the Creation Trio for you in one of the strangest animations ever.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

Those things are only mentioned as legends. The Sinjoh Ruins event shows Arceus creating/summoning one of the Creation Trio, but this doesn't go far enough to prove that it's some sort of creator god. It's either summoning a Pokémon, which isn't that remarkable, or it's making a new Pokémon, which other Pokémon simply achieve by breeding. And if you want to draw a line between breeding and just causing a Pokémon to come into existence, then I'd point to an evolving Nincada, which does precisely that: creating two Pokémon where there used to be one.

Even if you take this as proof that Arceus created certain legendaries, the most you can say is that it invalidates Mew's claim to be ancestor of those particular legandaries. Legendaries which, at the time of the research into Mew, may actually have been unknown to science and thus not taken into account by the theory.

And I don't see the "Well, some Pokémon are clearly man-made" argument as anything more than a nitpick of the Mew-as-progenitor established fact. Once again, it can be used to argue that certain Pokémon might not be descended from Mew, but not that Mew is not the ancestral Pokémon.

Let's make a real world analogy. Let's imagine that at some point, scientists figure out the identity of the bacteria that was the progenitor of all life on Earth. Everything now alive is descended from that one bacterium that lived billions of years ago. Now let's say that genetic engineering allows us to create some sort of completely new creature. Just because we've advanced technologically to the point where we can create life by ourselves, that doesn't suddenly invalidate the claim of this original bacterium to be the progenitor of life on Earth. What sort of argument would that be? "This bacteria can't be the origin of life, because now we have a species that doesn't descend from it!" Well, yeah. But we understand that it's an exception because we made it. If we discovered some previously unknown form of life that couldn't be genetically linked to that first bacterium, that might cast some doubt on the theory. That would be a significant exception. Artificial Pokémon are exceptions that we already have explanations for.