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Preview JN132: The Finals IV: "Partner"

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Singaporean said:
Yup, otherwise having a new move set given to Pikachu for what? Just for biggest lost? Just like that Kalos Controversy, which is completely unforgiven and unacceptable as the writer being slimeball and despair worshipper since his mind is consume with crap and nonsense.
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Yeah, I don't see them doing a repeat of the Kalos League finale here.
 
I guess this will be daring…and I see nobody mentioning it. And with preamble that I am fully aware this is not likely…but the way things are set up, I have been thinking about it and see no better way.

So, everything is set up for Leon to win (Cinderance still available, gimmicks spent), yet many feel Ash may pull this out. Question is…how?
Although it will likely not happen and it is also a technical inconsistency…I see no better way than…Pikachu evolving into Raichu.

Yes, yes, I am aware that technically he needs thunder stone or G-Max Factor makes it impossible. But those are technicalities, there is story to tell.
AniPoke has set the stage, the most important match in history. And we know how Pikachu despises evolution as much as being in his Pokeball.

Yet, this whole series began by Pikachu sacrificing as Pichu, when he saw his foster mother starting to struggle to take care of him. And he evolved in that regard. What a better way how to frame it seeing his beloved Pikapi struggling to achieve his dream and mustering unimaginable to help him defeat Leon.

It would be also daring in still open dilemma - does Ash have place to go narratively after this with AniPoke? I tend to be on the side that he does not. Yes, there is no stopping anybody to write another series, have him raise another team. But IMHO, that is past the mark and sign of fear of change. Sticking to the old, despite it only repeating itself. But this is also what AniPoke would most probably choose, risk-averse decisions run businesses nowadays.
But in rare case this Raichu evolution would happen, it would also have this outworld significance - the most obvious decision and sign that AniPoke is ready to move beyond Ash and Pikachu.

And I am not saying you could not pull off Plan A without drastic changes satisfyingly as well. Portraying Ash and Pikachu mustering all their strength and winning sans evolving and then continuing to Paldea. Since that is most probable outcome, I am hoping they will do their very best and it will be enjoyable. Although in that case I remain in “tie is the best outcome” position, but win is also digestible.

But, I said it…for AniPoke to move closer to Art, I see no other way for this episode. As with magic in Witcher, to conjure something you must first bring sacrifice. And greatest victory narratively demands what has been portrayed in history of Anime as one of the greatest sacrifices - Pikachu evolving because him and Ash winning is the most important thing, greater than him not wanting to evolve.
 
MimeyTheKeeper said:
Pikachu evolving because him and Ash winning is the most important thing, greater than him not wanting to evolve.
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As a person who LOVES raichu (to the point that I ran a copy pasted Ash’s JN team on showdown with Raichu) this has never been the message the anime wants to pass. Winning isn’t the most important thing- it’s the journey and growth with your Pokémon, respecting their wishes and playing to their strengths that’s the most important thing. Not Ash winning. Pikachu’s happiness is more important than defeating Leon. There’s a reason the episode is titled “Partner”.
 
PkmnTrainerV said:
As a person who LOVES raichu (to the point that I ran a copy pasted Ash’s JN team on showdown with Raichu) this has never been the message the anime wants to pass. Winning isn’t the most important thing- it’s the journey and growth with your Pokémon, respecting their wishes and playing to their strengths that’s the most important thing. Not Ash winning. Pikachu’s happiness is more important than defeating Leon. There’s a reason the episode is titled “Partner”.
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I agree.

But then Ash loses here or they have quite the stretch to make him win satisfyingly.

EDIT: Quick remark, hopefully it is obviously understood that decision to evolve into Raichu was meant as Pikachu’s and Pikachu’s alone. In case somebody would infer that I meant Ash forcing Pikachu to evolve, which would be very troubling. (The idea itself but also that somebody has such absence of good will to infer that)
 
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FinnishPokéFan92 said:
He still has a perfectly plausible shot at winning, especially if the Pika Papow theory holds up.
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I am aware of theory. I would agree in case there would be only Leon’s Charizard left. That mon is broken as hell, so having something like that for Pikachu to finish it off (also having small type advantage), would be in fact quite well balanced. Despite Pikachu starting with one super-effective hit down from Cinderance, suffering more from Dai-Dragon than Charizard from Iron Tail and having G-Max and Z-Move cancel out.

But there is the case of Cinderance, who is yet to be barely scratched. And given how all Pokémon have been roughly presented so far, it seems just too steep mountain to climb.
Yes, they may pull some everything-solving power of friendship, but we will see.

And yet again, I am writing this like on 10th separate occasion - in case writers wanted Pikachu to win, they did not need to dig themselves into such hole. They could have Dragonite switched or dealt more damage to Rillaboom, then let’s say Sirftech’d tie with him and having Dracovish to finish off Cinderance, who he has despite Libero-ability quite favourable typing against.

But they did what we saw, we are yet to see why, but win does not seem to be set up in plausible way.

And since I am on side of bashing which you do not like very much, let me just put it all out there and say that mentioning Leon‘s Cinderance - I take it should resemble soccer player as Galar serves as parable to Britain. In that case, I have played soccer for 30 years, that is not “evasive soccer player” movement they are animating him with. Especially when he is in his “ready” stance. It resembles something more of boxer. They should have taken something like Neymar’s movement (although I particularly do not like the guy). When I first saw that, I was like “I suspect I know what they were trying to portray, but gosh, I do not think it works”

tenor.com

Neymar Santos Neymar Jr GIF - Neymar Santos Neymar Jr Santos Fc - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF
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MimeyTheKeeper said:
I am aware of theory. I would agree in case there would be only Leon’s Charizard left. That mon is broken as hell, so having something like that for Pikachu to finish it off (also having small type advantage), would be in fact quite well balanced. Despite Pikachu starting with one super-effective hit down from Cinderance, suffering more from Dai-Dragon than Charizard from Iron Tail and having G-Max and Z-Move cancel out.

But there is the case of Cinderance, who is yet to be barely scratched. And given how all Pokémon have been roughly presented so far, it seems just too steep mountain to climb.
Yes, they may pull some everything-solving power of friendship, but we will see.

And yet again, I am writing this like on 10th separate occasion - in case writers wanted Pikachu to win, they did not need to dig themselves into such hole. They could have Dragonite switched or dealt more damage to Rillaboom, then let’s say Sirftech’d tie with him and having Dracovish to finish off Cinderance, who he has despite Libero-ability quite favourable typing against.

But they did what we saw, we are yet to see why, but win does not seem to be set up in plausible way.
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Leon could temporarily recall Charizard and have Cinderace fight a Gigantamax battle with Pikachu, before Pikachu and Charizard finish the battle.
 
Broseph08 said:
It really would be the biggest troll of all time if Ash lost. Unfortunately, knowing this show's history, I can't even discount that as a possibility.
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Singaporean said:
Yup, otherwise having a new move set given to Pikachu for what? Just for biggest lost? Just like that Kalos Controversy, which is completely unforgiven and unacceptable as the writer being slimeball and despair worshipper since his mind is consume with crap and nonsense.
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It seems as though the writers might enjoy disappointing fans. The thing is, if they decide to have Leon win, the question is how? Be trolls and have Ash lose 4-6 with Pikachu unable to defeat Charizard or Cinderace? Be merciful on a 5-6 with Pikachu defeating Charizard but losing to Cinderace? Repeat the Kalos League on a 5-6 with Cinderace defeated but Pikachu losing to Charizard? Or actually surprise us with a 6-6 draw or Ash finally winning 6-5 and showing how far he and Pikachu have come since 1997.

We won't know until Friday night. I anticipate Leon winning, but in spite of this, Ash will be commended for being a worthy opponent, managing to defeat at least four of Leon's Pokémon and providing no doubt one of the best matches in-universe for its closeness.
MimeyTheKeeper said:
Although it will likely not happen and it is also a technical inconsistency…I see no better way than…Pikachu evolving into Raichu.
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Pikachu will never evolve, period.
 
FinnishPokéFan92 said:
Leon could temporarily recall Charizard and have Cinderace fight a Gigantamax battle with Pikachu, before Pikachu and Charizard finish the battle.
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Yes, that answers the lineup, but does not very much answer HOW…or more precisely how convincingly?

OK, my last effort, since I already overstayed my welcome and need other things to do, I devote some time to Pokémon and it is almost up for this week.

I simply cannot join you in characterizing Ash chance to win as ”perfectly plausible” - the way I see it is more of Hail Mary situation. And even more desperate than against Steven, where 10MV served that purpose almost literraly. Miind you, I was one writing lengthy post why Ash vs Cynthia was setup very well even with controversial Dynamax of Togekiss - that made sense and was executed very well, which I praised. So just to remind everyone it is not about finding flaws at all costs. But this setup is quite rough, in fact so rough that as I said - as unimaginable as it is - Pikachu evolving was just of the few reasons I would get Ash still pulling it off.

But let’s look at it:

Damage Suffered
Pikachu - one 2x Scorching Sands, 1x Full Max Wyrmwind, some remnants of Max Rockfall (but mostly avoided) and possibly some backlash of super-clash, but it is hard to tell. But in all regards, not so little. It is still unclear how much staying on sidelines help to rest, Pikachu at least appears not to have scratches which was almost always indication of heavy damage, but he is far from fresh.

vs.

Charizard - one 1/2x Iron Tail (even Anime blatantly emphasizing how it was not very effective), seems to have more visibly suffered from super-clash of moves, but how much? Not mentioning this is only Pokémon we have no idea how far can he go as he is yet to be defeated, the most reasonable mark is Raihan, when he suffered 4x Stone Edge and 1/2x Metal Claw + Steel Beam and have fallen with scratches, but still eventually won.

Cinderace - is quite possibly undamaged, maybe EDIT - as @PkmnTrainerV corrected me, my bad, had 1/2 here - 1x Fishious Rend (as he was Steel type during that move), but visibily nothing serious how Anime portrayed it, Thunderbolt absorbed due to Ground Typing, Dragon Rush avoided

Conclusion: Pikachu must overcome practically almost 2 fresh undamaged Pokémon, Charizard fully (who is ace of aces) and Cinderace almost (Dracovish did not cast much damage or exhaustion seems) and was already hit more by them then he hit them. With no gimmick left, or even if so, then mutual (G-Max battle vs Cinderace due to Eternatus possibly), that is steep steep mountain. Contrary to battle with Steven, when Metagross at least suffered one good hit and Cradily exchanged some hits with Gengar. Or Cynthia where Lucario was against relatively fresh Togekiss, but Garchomp had already suffered one direct Meteor Assault and was at typing/moveset disadvantage. Speaking of…

Typing and Movesets
So even when situation is dire, like was with Lucario, does Pikachu at least have typing/moveset advantage to overcome this?

Pikachu - will be hiting with Thunderbolt and Electro-web - 2x effective against Charizard, problem is he had quite problem landing Thunderbolt in Masters 8 so far. With Cinderace obviously matters on Libero, but sans Scorching Sands (Ground) which will Ash hopefully avoid, the other types it hits at least 1x. Iron Tail is not very effective against Charizard and Cinderace with 2 of 4 moves, otherwise 1x. That said in case Pikachu actually lands that move, Cinderance seems to be quite nimble. And Quick Attack lands 1x damage sans Cindrace using Iron Head (but that move seem questionable to use against small, agile and resistant Pikachu)

Charizard - seems that moves do not change during Masters 8, so Charizard probably has what he had against Alain - Fire Blast, Ancient Power, Dragon Pulse and Air Slash. Fits with moves Leon was calling when G-Max - he called 3 which are 1x effective, with Air Slash/Max Airstream would be 1/2x. The question is landing this moves in normal form, Pikachu could probably avoid Dragon Pulse and Fire Blast, and Ancient Power and Air Slash to some extent. But that is the best case scenario.

Cinderace - he has Pyro Ball (1x), Scorching Sands (2x), Iron Head (1/2x) and High Jump Kick (not sure - but definetily Fighting so 1x) - the most effective already landed, probably Pikachu can avoid it further, Iron Head is questionable, Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick avoidable.

Conclusion: Pikachu has some decent moves to hit, but nothing earth shattering (4x or similar) and the other side has also reasonably effective moves. So in case they begin to exchange hits, Pikachu is effectively 2 vs 1 a hardly wins. So he needs to strike very precisely and avoid damage, which is doable, but…

Abilities, Rough Stamina and Trainers
Abilities probably could tilt things a little bit for Pikachu, since Libero is already exposed and used, I hardly see Charizard using Blaze and Static could provide opening for some effective move, though I am not sure that physical contact with Electric Move is needed for that, but Quick Attack maybe enough.

Rough Stamina - as mentioned, Charizard’s is who knows where, Cinderace with other Leon’s Galar starters is so far seeming like they would be worthy ace of any trainer outside Masters 8 alone. On the other side…Pikachu is durable for such little mouse, but that is hardly his forte.

Trainers - that would be maybe all still overturned with Ash’s tactics and improv. But so far it seemed he was at the best keeping with Leon. Which is achievement in it iself and very good. But to enable Pikachu to defeat those two? That would need strikes of pure genius.

Overall Conclusion
Pikachu is effectively in 2 vs 1 battle, which would be decently matched against either opponent being it 1 v 1, but with 2 v 1, it is difficult. He does not have gimmick on his hand and would likely need two for each. He does not have that advantageous moveset or typing. He can inflict damage, but his opponents similarly and have been more successful in it so far. And Ash does not seem to outwit Leon to provide leverage.

So yes, Pikachu can pull it off with some friendship-fueled overpowered mode and maybe 1x Pika Papow, but that would still require ramping up speed, agility, precision and tactics up to eleven and outpace/outsmart Leon and his Pokémon, so for every hit they inflict, they suffer 3-4. And for it pull of 2-3 insane Ash improvs.

In case we want the win to be believable and consistent with everything we saw before, that is.

Is it doable? Yes, I think so, and am hoping writers and animators pulled it off and it would be joy to see it.
But that does not mean they do not have to mountain to climb and being some odds supplying booker, Ash‘s chances of victory would be now statistically almost zero.

PS. This all applies also to my prefered result of tie between them, since tie with someone 6 v 6 is almost next near to winning.
 
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CharizardFan7 said:
Yeah, I don't see them doing a repeat of the Kalos League finale here.
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Not to mention, the writers are clearly, on some level, aware of how unpopular the Kalos League loss was. That's why they brought Alain back just to have him go down like a chump against Leon. For them to then repeat Ash's performance against Alain with Leon would be odd, to say the least.
 
El Squibbonator said:
Not to mention, the writers are clearly, on some level, aware of how unpopular the Kalos League loss was. That's why they brought Alain back just to have him go down like a chump against Leon. For them to then repeat Ash's performance against Alain with Leon would be odd, to say the least.
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Would it really be a repeat of his battle with Alain though? People keep bringing up the Kalos League, but I still can't really see Ash losing to Leon causing the same kind of backlash as the match against Alain did. Despite the bigger stage with the PWC, I still think that there was a lot more hype for the Kalos League and that more people wanted Alain to lose than they do with Leon. To be clear, I'm not saying that people don't want Leon to lose or don't want Ash to win, but just that the hype between both battles seem noticeably different to me. That's why the comparison doesn't quite work for me.

I'm also not convinced that they'd care that much about what fans online think about the anime, at least to the point where they'd avoid Ash losing. If they really cared about pleasing older fans, they would have replaced Ash ages ago. People were also pretty upset with how they brought back Alain. They wanted to see Ash vs. Alain, so bringing him back just to be canon fodder for Leon felt more like an odd choice to me, especially when the target audience wouldn't be as familiar with him compared to long time fans. It wouldn't take long to explain his history with Ash, but bringing him back just to further hype up Leon would only stand out to people who have watched XY.
 
Hidden Mew said:
Would it really be a repeat of his battle with Alain though? People keep bringing up the Kalos League, but I still can't really see Ash losing to Leon causing the same kind of backlash as the match against Alain did. Despite the bigger stage with the PWC, I still think that there was a lot more hype for the Kalos League and that more people wanted Alain to lose than they do with Leon. To be clear, I'm not saying that people don't want Leon to lose or don't want Ash to win, but just that the hype between both battles seem noticeably different to me. That's why the comparison doesn't quite work for me.

I'm also not convinced that they'd care that much about what fans online think about the anime, at least to the point where they'd avoid Ash losing. If they really cared about pleasing older fans, they would have replaced Ash ages ago. People were also pretty upset with how they brought back Alain. They wanted to see Ash vs. Alain, so bringing him back just to be canon fodder for Leon felt more like an odd choice to me, especially when the target audience wouldn't be as familiar with him compared to long time fans. It wouldn't take long to explain his history with Ash, but bringing him back just to further hype up Leon would only stand out to people who have watched XY.
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Agree but they are clearly are aware of the fans thoughts because they had Ash win the Alola League
 
cricketlaxwolvesbandy said:
Agree but they are clearly are aware of the fans thoughts because they had Ash win the Alola League
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That may not have been a response to the Kalos League though. It's certainly a possibility and fans like that idea, but it's just as likely, if not more so, that they wanted Ash to win to better tie in with the seventh generation games. Since the player character was from Kanto who became the first Alola Champion and Ash takes the role of the player character, they might have wanted Ash to win the Alola League to mirror the events in the games as well. Unless they straight up say that they had Ash win the Alola League in response to the Kalos League backlash, I would not treat the Alola League victory as proof that they care about online backlash or what older fans think of the anime.
 
A Wild Luxray said:
There's a big difference between Ash's battle with Alain and Leon. Its the expectations fans had. Significantly more people expected Ash to defeat Alain than they expect him to beat Leon. More people think he'll lose to Leon. That's the big difference.
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There's also the general receptions between XY and Journeys. XY was a pretty big fan favorite series even before the Kalos League. Despite the backlash over Alain, it still is held in high regard among many fans. Journeys just hasn't had that same kind of hype and excitement by comparison despite being the PWC being a bigger stage.
 
Honestly, has Ash ever lost to game character he battles in these giant tournaments? Gary, Hau, Gladion, Kukui, Steven, Cynthia... Unless I'm missing someone, I think he's actually undefeated and only tends to lose to anime-only characters. That alone is another reason why I think he may pull this off
 
Broseph08 said:
Honestly, has Ash ever lost to game character he battles in these giant tournaments? Gary, Hau, Gladion, Kukui, Steven, Cynthia... Unless I'm missing someone, I think he's actually undefeated and only tends to lose to anime-only characters. That alone is another reason why I think he may pull this off
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True. He's even defeated every Gym Leader he's battled against, excluding only Cress (not required to rematch since beating Cilan and Chili was enough), Cheren (unofficial battle), and Opal (unofficial battle). Elite Four members and Champions were an exception before Journeys, as defeating them wasn't necessary for Ash and showed he still had room to grow.
 
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