Mafia Fire in the Garden: Kanto Starters Mafia: Endgame, Bulbasaur Victory

[Zexy]

And yet, there has been some discussions about evolution and roles and about visitors from Zexy's claim. My thought process is that the person who visited Zexy should be looked at it more wherever the hell that leads to. It's as if most players weren't paying attention to that part!

Without spoiling too much, I do not think there is much to be gained scumhunting-wise right now if I were to reveal the name of my visitor. Besides I really do not believe scum had a reason to target me with any ability except kill.

Maybe a SmokeScreen functioning as a Charmeleon ability roleblock (chance to make target's move miss)? But that is a bit of a stretch, Worry Seeder and that both picking me arbitrarily when I did not even claim a power role.

 

[ExLight]

I didn't find your explanation to be groundbreaking to be honest. As I previously stated, I feel that your posts tend to be distracting from scumhunting by bringing up mechanics and discussions that should be have in the later phases.

Yet when Zexy does it you give them a green lean mkay

 

[ExLight]

@DawningWinds are the roles randed for town and mafia from the same list? or does each faction have their own list of possible roles?

 

[Zexy]

... Ivysaurs and Charmeleons have VERY different movesets

 

[DawningWinds]

@DawningWinds are the roles randed for town and mafia from the same list? or does each faction have their own list of possible roles?

Each faction has an individual list.

 

[Pikochu]

Just got back from getting my tires replaced and the store. Comments I want to make:

OK to be honest this could be a difference in mafia phliosophy issue.

I wouldn't say that ExLight's applied philosophy is incompatible for this game. What I was trying to say is that the current philosophy just doesn't apply at this stage of the game and that such a philsophy

I'm also frustrated from the low posting

I think we all are, though I do want to say that the more active players are trying to make themselves look more active than they really are. I know they are talking about pushing the inactives and I think the votes on the other inactives are reasonable enough to see.

Part of the reason why I voted for Snowy is to encourage talking as there wasn't much from him at the time. I personally didn't go after LICH or Jaime because I didn't know what their play style like at all. I kinda have an idea, albeit a very outdated idea. And yes, I know this starts getting into meta which is something not worth going into. Suffice to say, I just gave LICH and Jaime more of the benefit of the doubt than I did with Snowy.

I suppose that it's possible that Piko was the one who visited you, and then fypov you would see my vote on Piko as me "just pushing another townie," but you also say that a Piko flip would give good info. So I'm a little confused.

I'm also confused too by Zexy's logic. It's just basically "I think Piko is sus because of the visit but I don't wanna push if it's something good and he gets lynched" type of deal.

Nobody tells me what to do and gets away with it What do I look like; some pokémon on a battlefield?

##Vote DawningWinds

In all seriousness, I haven't read a thing past page 5 (yet), so you'll get content out of me but not for a couple of hours, as I'm still at work for another 4.

Hi Elie.

FMPOV as town LICH/Piko is the best wagons we could have, with maybe Raven/Piko next, although at this point I suspect Piko more and Raven less. But all of these give maximum info.

I'm really not liking that you are non-commiting to a wagon and I'm suspecting you're trying to either pin this mainly on me and/or Caps. You have been pushing pretty hard for a wagon on A/B, and then when you are being prodded you withdraw. Then you decided to ask Caps about Caps/Piko That reeks you and Caps being potential scum buddies trying to score a mislynch on me.

As for giving maximum info in the game, I feel pushing the more actives into the wagon would productive as I feel they are causing the most of the confusion currently in this game.

Another option for major wagons is Pikochu and Caps. If Piko is town, Caps has to be next.

But please, it has been half the phase and we have not even decided who the major wagons are gonna be. We need almost everyone to take clear "A or B" stances on something, 7 1-votes will not get us anywhere. Chances on a random 2-voter flip at the last minute is 70% town and little further reads can be made from that.

Basically, idk. Trying to plan wagons is stupid and people should just vote who they think is scum.

Planning wagons are fine but they should be done with cohesive reasoning as a group, which I feel that Zexy is failing to do. I think Zexy is trying to start wagons for either pressuring players or doing it just for the sake of it to throw more confusion.

People just voting who they think is scum just results in 7 1-votes and won't get anywhere. It would be ideal if everyone engaged enough, now... Not so much. I feel like the more actives should present an "A or B" choice for the rest to have to bet on.

This probably gonna look like an OMGUS; these posts raised serious red flags that I'm willing raise a Zexy/Caps wagon. I'm not just not seeing how Zexy is putting Caps as a lower priority target. I'm also not seeing much alternative wagons not involving I think these two are having the game focus too much on WIFOM on finding scum. Kinda makes me think that Zexy and Caps are potential scumbuddies trying to focus solely finding mafia and not figuring out who may be town also.

Actually, there hasn't been too much analysis as a group of potential town players. I kinda feel that mafia has been focusing too much on accusations who might be them that we lost who may not be them too.

Unvote: Snowy

I need to recalibrate, gonna unvote for now as Snowy is in the process of being subbed out and I do want to be reasonable as I get some good night's rest.

 

[TheCapsFan]

The issue I have with that though is I highly doubt that scum wants to do a theater in such a way that would lead to bussing on Day 1, especially that early on Day 1.

Why not? I do this all the time when I am scum. Bussing early on D1, i.e. sussing/voting a scum partner, is an easy way to distance early & I can always backtrack if necessary.

And yet, there has been some discussions about evolution and roles and about visitors from Zexy's claim. My thought process is that the person who visited Zexy should be looked at it more wherever the hell that leads to. It's as if most players weren't paying attention to that part!

why? Do you think that the player that targeted Zexy is more likely to be mafia or town?

Mint's posts are based more on what happened and with attempts at logic while your posts looked more speculative to me.

Fair enough, I was pretty speculative in general yesterday but I did try to follow a train of thought I believed to be logical in expressing my case to vote jaison over wissen.

Tell me how this is basically not parroting? That's where I thought this was basically essentially a parrot on Snowy's part.

Okay, so I think I mistook what you are calling "parroting" to be more like "sheeping?" That is a misinterpretation on my part. What is your definition of parroting? Defending Zexy in a way that is unprompted? What I see in Snowy's post is calling out a vote made on something that he didn't believe to be alignment indicative, aka saying that he thinks Mido's vote unfairly paints a target on Zexy's back. Sounds reasonable to me. It's not like he's implicitly helping Zexy in any way by voting or anything like that either because all the votes were tied at 1.

I said under normal circumstances it would be suspicious. And I felt that gentle should have saw the other vote that broke the tie.

So are these "normal circumstances" or not? Because your read leads off with the sense that you're gonna townread gentlefeather since these aren't "normal circumstances" but then you end up giving her a scumread at the end.

I will say this. Regardless of who actually sealed Jaison's fate, the reason I think Jamie looks better than gentlefeather in this situation is because he did not hesitate when voting Jaison, he just made a choice and went. Whereas I think scum is more likely to look for approval and ask questions before making a decision so that in the case it is a miselim it's not entirely "their fault."

I want something more substantial from LICH. LICH at the time was just pointing fingers and did a bunch of "what ifs" without even just a surface level analysis of such what ifs. To me, he was just spamming WIFOM that distracts from the game.

I also want something more substantial from LICH. Encouraging LICH to discuss something that's already been discussed pretty thoroughly is not going to result in something more substantial from LICH. Encouraging LICH to give reads on other players backed up with reasoning will result in something more substantial from LICH.

There's a HUGE, HUGE difference between saying that half the game is scum in general and calling out SPECIFIC players as potential players. What I'm saying is that the players that I listed are probably one (or even two) players that are mafia.

Not really. All you have done is separate the people who have posted a decent amount (plus snowy) from like four other players who are inactive (some of whom you even gave townreads to!!!) and said "here, there's two mafia in this group of half the players." And then you just said there's one scum in the remaining players who aren't as active or were more null in your eyes. If that's the point you were trying to make (two amongst the actives plus snowy, one inactive) it was incredibly unclear.

 

[Zexy]

Yeah after this I am slightly more sus of Piko. Too convenient to push the idea that both Caps and I are scum, hope to get one of us lynched, and when it is a town flip push the other. I could even see Piko/Mido buddies being a thing. The ideas they both suggest could result in at least two more mislynches each, if Snowy slot is also town, while Caps already has caused one mislynch that was not THAT bad logic wise and now makes a case on a person that I also consider a bit sus. Meanwhile they could kill random low activity people to hopefully hit power roles, feeling comfortable that the two very actives hunt so badly and will be lynched. Right now I believe a Piko flip gives maximum info. If town we need to look again on Caps, if mafia we need to look again on Mido.

Just making this clear again, my Piko reads are not related in any way to the person who visited me.

 

[Zexy]

Unrelated to the above, but I town lean Jamie a little more than gentle as well, who is like totally null.

The only super terrible scenario that could make sense for scum Jamie would be Caps Mido Piko being ALL misguided town (as am I) and the scum team is like Raven Jamie and one of the rest.

 

[TheCapsFan]

I'm also confused too by Zexy's logic. It's just basically "I think Piko is sus because of the visit but I don't wanna push if it's something good and he gets lynched" type of deal.

Zexy confirmed that his vote on you has nothing to do with whomever visited him. Are you claiming to have visited Zexy?

I'm really not liking that you are non-commiting to a wagon and I'm suspecting you're trying to either pin this mainly on me and/or Caps. You have been pushing pretty hard for a wagon on A/B, and then when you are being prodded you withdraw. Then you decided to ask Caps about Caps/Piko That reeks you and Caps being potential scum buddies trying to score a mislynch on me.

As for giving maximum info in the game, I feel pushing the more actives into the wagon would productive as I feel they are causing the most of the confusion currently in this game.

The fuck??? If you are town, and Zexy and I are scum, how does it benefit us for Zexy to just telegraph my lynch on Day 3 like he did? To bus me and give himself cred?? At the cost of losing a whole ass teammate? In this game, where getting access to power is the same as rolling a 4 on a d4, numbers matter. Scum want to keep their partners alive. Especially the active ones.

This probably gonna look like an OMGUS; these posts raised serious red flags that I'm willing raise a Zexy/Caps wagon. I'm not just not seeing how Zexy is putting Caps as a lower priority target. I'm also not seeing much alternative wagons not involving I think these two are having the game focus too much on WIFOM on finding scum. Kinda makes me think that Zexy and Caps are potential scumbuddies trying to focus solely finding mafia and not figuring out who may be town also.

Wait, if we're scumbuds, shouldn't Zexy be putting me as a lower priority target? He isn't! I am next in line on his chopping block if you flip town! From your POV, if you're town, you should understand that!!!

Guess what. It's hard to find town when nobody fucking does anything. Because if they don't do anything, they don't give me a reason to townread them.

 

[Zexy]

Piko and Mido while acting seemingly acting quite different, both essentially focus on Caps, I, and Snowy. Different reasons, different order, but the idea is there. They do not acknowledge each other much but in terms of trying to push cases they ARE a bit buddy-buddy, yet each one covers what is lacking on the other's argument subtly. Seeing what sticks.

FMPOV Piko is way too informative of a flip, LICH can wait really, my idea that scum Caps could have set him up does no longer need that flip to prove or disprove, Piko flip does the Caps better while also giving us valuable Mido and Snowy insights too.

I might have not achieved an A or B wagon strat, but believe have managed to intertwine the fates of all these players in a way that will produce info.

 

[TheCapsFan]

The only super terrible scenario that could make sense for scum Jamie would be Caps Mido Piko being ALL misguided town (as am I) and the scum team is like Raven Jamie and one of the rest.

This would be absolute hell.

 

[Zexy]

Yeah scum me would NEVER bus buddy Caps unless absolutely necessary. He would just be way too much help in thread, I consider him a better player than me these days, I mean come up he qualified for a mafia champ semi when I did not.

Seriously Caps is making too much sense lately and I feel like either he plays me around too well or I come off as very parotty to Mido, but yeah Piko arguments are a bit sloppy and similar to Mido arguments, who while well presented... Push the exact same agenda just shuffled around. Like 90% sure one of them will have to copy the other's vote before day end, no matter where it finally lies.

 

[Zexy]

Also just making something else clear before Mido jumps on me even more.

I am not saying that the way Mido presents arguments is sus, the only sus things about her are pushing me (but I avoid revenge voting based only on things like that) and indirectly agreeing with sus Piko on pretty much everything, a 3/3 exact match IS sus!

I would not advocate for a Mido vote first, that is only to be reserved (and top priority) if and only if Piko actually flips scum.

 

[Zexy]

Summing it up because my post style might be overwhelming for some players

Scummiest
Piko (if scum, then Mido, if town, then Caps)
LICH (if town, then Caps)
Mido (if Piko scum)
Caps (if Piko or LICH town)
Raven (if all the above are town and I have that much of a skill issue)

Null
gentlefeather
ExLight
Elieson

Townier
Jamie (unless Raven is scum)
Snowy (unless both Piko/Mido are town and Caps is scum)

 

[Zexy]

Actually Elie (wissen) is also gonna be a slight scum lean if Piko flips scum, because of the early d1 choice, not more than Mido tho. Which if true may also make LICH townier too. Yeah the insight I would get from a Piko flip is HUGE, sorry no hard feelings on the off chance you flip town, but I cannot think of a more useful flip right now.

 

[RavenRaziel98]

The issue I have with that though is I highly doubt that scum wants to do a theater in such a way that would lead to bussing on Day 1, especially that early on Day 1.

I didn't say that it is or isn't the case, I just pointed out that it could be a possibility. Besides, as long as we don't know who scum is, it is not too unreasonable to at least assume that players with little/no scum experience are involved. This does not mean that it actually is the case, but I also think we shouldn't dismiss the possibility too fast.

Tell me how this is basically not parroting? That's where I thought this was basically essentially a parrot on Snowy's part.

I get your point, but I feel like snowy rather summed it up because the follow up question (Why vote Zexy?) would be weird and kinda random if it was stated alone. Several possibilities for this reaction come to mind, from Snowy not trusting Mido to Snowy trusting Zexy to Snowy not seeing how Mido's vote on Zexy is supposed to be reasonable and taking a position of disagreement on it. I could get deeper into this, but in the end it's just hypothesis and maybe some wifom.

 

[Pikochu]

I'll address the other points in the morning. However, there's one thing that should be pointed out and needs an immediate explanation:

Summing it up because my post style might be overwhelming for some players

Scummiest
Piko (if scum, then Mido, if town, then Caps)
LICH (if town, then Caps)
Mido (if Piko scum)
Caps (if Piko or LICH town)
Raven (if all the above are town and I have that much of a skill issue)

Null
gentlefeather
ExLight
Elieson

Townier
Jamie (unless Raven is scum)
Snowy (unless both Piko/Mido are town and Caps is scum)

Bold added by myself.

I'm curious as how Jaime be your top town read (ignoring the Snowy spot for now) when given at the time of your posting are the following:

Spoiler: Quotes from JaimeIsBored along with my thoughts of each of them

I'm in!

Confirmed!

The two posts above are just pre-game posts.

Hey, sorry everyone I did not get the ping. I've read through all the logs and Zexy can you specify why you assumed I was mafia, just a hunch?

Post was in response to pressure that was more or less RVS of Day 1.

I'll stop the tie, I'm happy to change if he has a good rebuttal though
Vote jaison crasta

Tie-breaking vote that's NAI. Honestly, I don't think much could have be said about the vote as it seems more of a panic vote to get a lynch in based on what gentlefeather said.

Ah sorry, I went off what gentlefeather had said

Actually, I just noticed based on the post that gentlefeather was wrong about the tiebreaker rule (tiebreaker results in random lynch of the tied players, not a no-lynch).

Meanwhile, I feel that ExLight has posted enough to provide a reason for such a read, which you haven't. And personally, I think whether how you feel if Exlight leans town or scum based on your analysis of the post.

Vote: Zexy

 

[Zexy]

So, Piko... you seem to care more about me admitting if Jamie town lean is because of the visit than actually using it as a case against me, don't you? Sorry to break it to you but I will not fall for that.

In fact that entire thing earlier when you tried to make my visitor claim too much about you and implying I am using it against you, could have been an attempt to pressure others to persuade me to tell who visited.

Wow, if you are scum, the scum team seems DESPERATE to fish out which townie has the power role, doesn't it?

You said you do not wanna OMGUS earlier, but this is exactly what you just did. You also proved my point that Mido and you will eventually gang up on the same person exactly right.

In fact, this could be only you plus inactives being scum while Mido is town, you just liked that she accused 3 townies by random chance and decided to parrot that to throw shade at her too if you flip! I feel like if you are scum and Mido were also your buddy, she would advise you against trying to fish the name of my visitor so blatantly.

Like wow after this I am so so SO convinced you are scum, sorry not sorry. I should have connected the dots sooner.

@Mint Elv if you really are town, please do not let him use you. He is parroting all 3 reads of yours and making this a 2-2 with his plan B being that he flips scum and we throw shade at you next for being too much like him. If you really are town, make it 1-3, and if he flips town feel free to HAMMER ME hard next day. If you do not do this, Piko flips, and I die, everyone will assume you are scum too, you do not want that now do you?

 

[Zexy]

I will rephrase the full case on Piko as follows:

Early on, uses Raven's idea on voting either wissen or jaison to vote wissen. WIFOM here, either wissen is his buddy and he wanted him saved, or he hoped we would target wissen after his flip for this as a Plan B

Overall not contributing much else d1 despite seeming active

Could have decided to make the scum kill on dawn dusk based on info from wissen, in fact he had the potential to set this up as much as Caps

Makes a somewhat sloppy case on Snowy

Sees Caps trying to push a case on him.

Sees Mido trying to theorize I am buddies with Snowy, considers it quite convenient, after this he does start to throw shade on me. Tries to make his reads align as much with Mido as possible, against Caps Snowy and I

Also sees Caps saying he believes both Mido and I are town despite his best efforts to keep equal distance between us and hoping we get on each other's throats more, is forced to take a stance

Says he would not OMGUS me but then does it. Only after Caps points more flaws in his arguments, I point the similarities with Mido, he gets more desperate. I believe his original plan was to start shading me based on what Mido said but not actually vote for me this phase, but catching him and pressuring him made him haste it up.

Tries too hard to fish out who my visitor is, first by making it a bigger deal than it is when it comes to his read, then trying to find out if it is Jamie (it is not).

...

I can see a full picture of Piko being the most active of the scums right now. So many things connecting together.